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FBI's investigation of the WTC tragedy

 
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FBI's Investigation of the WTC Tragedy:
Part 1: The Black Box and the Indestructible Passport
All four Black Boxes were supposedly destroyed and rendered unusable in spite of the fact that they are designed specifically for plane crashes which result in insurmountable conditions...yet one of the hijackers passports supposedly survives fire and heat of over 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit and is found in perfect shape in the rubble around the WTC towers? What kind of idiots does the FBI take us for?
How indestructible are the so-called �Black Boxes�?
Each airplane is equipped with a Flight Data Recorder and a Cockpit Voice Recorded. The term "Black Box" is used for these pieces of equipment. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) web site gives valuable information regarding these devices.
Regarding the Cockpit Voice Recorder it says:
"The CVR records the flight crew's voices, as well as other sounds inside the cockpit. The recorder's "cockpit area microphone" is usually located on the overhead instrument panel between the two pilots. Sounds of interest to an investigator could be engine noise, stall warnings, landing gear extension and retraction, and other clicks and pops. From these sounds, parameters such as engine rpm, system failures, speed, and the time at which certain events occur can often be determined. Communications with Air Traffic Control, automated radio weather briefings, and conversation between
the pilots and ground or cabin crew are also recorded." [NTSB web site http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm]
Regarding the Flight Data Recorder it says:
"The FDR onboard the aircraft records many different operating conditions of the flight. By regulation, newly manufactured aircraft must monitor at least twenty eight important parameters such as time, altitude, airspeed, heading, and aircraft attitude. In addition, some FDRs can record the status of more than 300 other in-flight characteristics that can aid in the investigation. The items monitored can be anything from flap position to auto-pilot mode
or even smoke alarms." [NTSB web site http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm]
Thus as we see each plane is equipped with two seperate "Black Box" devices which relay different yet complimentary information. It goes on to say:
"Both the Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder have proven to be valuable tools in the accident investigation process. They can provide information THAT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN BY OTHER MEANS." [NTSB web site http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm]
They are meant to be the hardy and sure way to get information regarding the last minutes before the plane went down. Here are the specifications of these devices including what they can withstand:
FLIGHT DATA RECORDER
Time recorded: 25 hour continuous
Number of parameters: 5 - 300+
Impact tolerance: 3400Gs /6.5ms
Fire resistance: 1100 degC/30 min
Water pressure resistance: submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon: 37.5 KHz
Battery: 6yr shelf life
30 day operation
COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER
Time recorded: 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels: 4
Impact tolerance: 3400 Gs /6.5ms
Fire resistance: 1100 deg C /30 min
Water pressure resistance: submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon: 37.5 KHz
Battery: 6yr shelf life
30 day operation
These specifications indicate equipment which can survive just about any conditions and any crash. Indeed, Black Boxes have been recovered from crashes in swamps, mountains, and oceans.
ABC News reports:
"Although investigators look for an entire black box, sometimes the only parts of the device that survive are the recorder's crash-survivable memory units (CSMU). THE CSMU IS ALMOST INDESTRUCTABLE. It is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material."
�It is designed to withstand HEAT OF UP TO 2,000 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT FOR ONE HOUR, salt water for at least 30 days, immersion in a variety of liquids such as jet fuel and lubricants, AND AN IMPACT OF 3,400 G�s. By comparison, astronauts are typically exposed to up to six Gs during a shuttle takeoff.� [ABCNews - http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scit...oxes010917.html]
So the Black Box is designed to withstand an impact of 3,400 G's. So what about the Pennsylvania crash site?
"THE VOICE RECORDER WAS SAID TO BE HEAVILY DAMAGED, and the manufacturer was being asked to help with further analysis. The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was reported to have hit the ground in excess of 500 MILES PER HOUR." [ABCNews - http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections...main010915.html]
The plane hit the ground at 500 mph. Taking the weight of the plane, its speed of descent, the G's end up much, much lower than 3,400.
Since each plane has two seperate Black Boxes which are designed to be indestructable in the event of a tragedy, that makes a total of EIGHT BLACK BOXES. If we are to believe that all the Black Boxes were damaged beyond use, then that is to say EIGHT BLACK BOXES in total were destroyed, while a measley paper passport survived.
Then the final paragraph of the same article says: "Investigators are less confident they will recover the black boxes buried underneath the rubble of the World Trade Center." So there is no hope of recovering the virtually indestructable Black Box from the rubble, but a paper passport survives in such a perfect state that it is "a significant piece of evidence"?
CNN reports one of the hijackers passports was found in the rubble of the World Trade Center vicinity:
"The searchers found several clues, he said, but would not elaborate. Last week, a passport belonging to one of the hijackers was found in the vicinity of Vesey Street, near the World Trade Center. 'It was a
significant piece of evidence for us,' Mawn said." [CNN http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/i...rism/index.html]
Also CNN reports:
"In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik." [CNN http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/g...tack/index.html]
Aside from the idiocy of any suggestion that a passport would survive a plane crash that is allegedly so severe it destroys the virtually
indestructable Black Box, we are also led to believe that the passport "flew away", out of the hijackers pocket, down a few blocks from the WTC grounds. Why a few blocks away? Could it be because it was a place out of everyone's sight?
It is also well known that paper was strewn all over the scene of the plane crash. This was due to the sudden shattering of the windows which would immediately eject all paper materials out of the building before incineration. A passport in someone's pocket who is sitting on a plane that explodes will suffer the same fate as the person whose pocket it is in, and the plane they are sitting in: absolute cremation.
United Airlines flight 93 crashed into a field in Pennsylvania. There was no explosion and no impact into a building and no 100+ story towers crashed down on top of it. Yet, we are led to believe that both of its Black Boxes were destroyed and/or damaged beyond use as well.
Other airline tragedies also reveal that in each and every case the Black Box is recovered, albeit damaged, but with full usability. Such crashes include EgyptAir flight 990, a 767, and TWA flight 800, a 747. Both crashes resulted in tremendous compromise of the planes physical integrity, but in spite of this the Cockpit Voice Recorders were recovered.
So we have established that the survival of a passport of someone in an exploded plane is lunacy. However, for the sake of argument lets say the passport survived. If the passport did indeed survive then so did the Black Box. If the Black Box did indeed survive as we have proven beyond a shred of doubt, then why the complete and utter lie that it was damaged beyond use? What are they hiding? This will be dealt with irrefutably in the nextsection of this analysis into the corruption which has seeped into the U.S. government, its foreign policy and its intelligence services.
This analysis has just begun, yet any sound minded person is already forced to question the validity of this entire farce. I intend to dismantle this investigation piece by piece as time allows. If the American people are so concerned with finding justice, why aren't more exposing these inconsistencies, fabrications and outright lies as I have? Do we Americans want JUSTICE SERVED or do we want MORE BLOOD of innocent civilians? Thus far, in the United States of America, due to the anger over the tragedy dubbed "PENTTBOM", there have been at least three homicidal attacks against immigrants. Now an overwhelming 80% of them are supporting an invasion into a remote country that has absolutely nothing to do with this tragedy.
Instead of using their heads to get to the bottom of this and prosecute the criminals behind this act, they are killing their neighbors, and laying the heads of good American soldiers and innocent Afghan women and children on the chopping block. I say "them" at this point and not "us", because I distance myself from those who commit hate crimes in the name of "America" whom I have just described. Someone is playing a very sick game upon us all
right under our noses, and it will cost us our very lives if we do not STOP them.
ABC News reports: "...And 69 percent say they'd support military action even if it means a long war with substantial U.S. military casualties."
You want "substantial U.S. military casualties"? What the hell is wrong with everyone? The Afghans have never lost a war in 800 years. They not only drove the Russians out of their country but it lead to the dissolution of the Soviet Empire. They have brought empire after empire to their knees. In a CNN interview with Jill Dougherty, Leo Korolkov who trained the Russian Special Forces (equivalent of our Delta Force) said he saw Afghans shot to ribbons and ripped to pieces still charging at them. In his words: "These fighters can bring any country, even a superpower -- be it Russia, the United States or Europe -- to the brink of catastrophe."
Nearly 70 percent of Americans support sacrificing more American lives to invade a country that couldn't be further removed from any responsibility in this tragedy to find ONE MAN before this circus of an investigation has even been completed. Have we learned nothing from the plumes of terror that rose from the ashes of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a morose field in Pennsylvania which shook our hearts and souls that fateful Tuesday? I fear that we have not.
Shibli Zaman
Houston, TX USA
 
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Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:

Nearly 70 percent of Americans support sacrificing more American lives to invade a country that couldn't be further removed from any responsibility in this tragedy to find ONE MAN before this circus of an investigation has even been completed. Have we learned nothing from the plumes of terror that rose from the ashes of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a morose field in Pennsylvania which shook our hearts and souls that fateful Tuesday? I fear that we have not.


So what you learned out of this is that if we leave them alone they will leave us alone? Or that we can "negotiate" with these animals? And you actually believe that countries like Afghanistan are not culpible? The belief that we would attack Afghanistan in order to simply get one man belies an ognorance as to our motivations I think. If our country was to adopt those attitudes you seem to display we would only be in for more bloodshed.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited September 19, 2001).]
 
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What an idiot. First off, papers were scattered all over the site. I know someone who found a boarding pass from the plane laying in the street. The nose of the plane (with one dead hijacker in it) was intact on the roof of the Mariott hotel.
I see that reading is not your strong suit. The information that you quote says that the black boxes were designed to withstand 1100 C for 30 minutes. The fire was hotter than that (hot enough to cause steel to bend) and lasted for more than 30 minutes.
Next you'll be telling us that the CIA crashed the planes into the WTC under the orders of JFK who really isn't dead but is living with Marilyn Monroe in an alien spacecraft outside of Havana.
 
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You want "substantial U.S. military casualties"? What the hell is wrong with everyone? The Afghans have never lost a war in 800 years. They not only drove the Russians out of their country but it lead to the dissolution of the Soviet Empire. They have brought empire after empire to their knees. In a CNN interview with Jill Dougherty, Leo Korolkov who trained the Russian Special Forces (equivalent of our Delta Force) said he saw Afghans shot to ribbons and ripped to pieces still charging at them. In his words: "These fighters can bring any country, even a superpower -- be it Russia, the United States or Europe -- to the brink of catastrophe."
Nearly 70 percent of Americans support sacrificing more American lives to invade a country that couldn't be further removed from any responsibility in this tragedy to find ONE MAN before this circus of an investigation has even been completed. Have we learned nothing from the plumes of terror that rose from the ashes of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a morose field in Pennsylvania which shook our hearts and souls that fateful Tuesday? I fear that we have not.


First of all, that 800 year stretch is coming to an end. Lets see them stand up to cruise missiles.
And im not sure where you got your facts from, but if you believe that the soviets losing the war to afghanistan had anything to do with them breaking up your seriously misguided.
A country that couldnt be further removed from responsibity? How about any other country in this world? Afganistan is more responsible than any other country. To think otherwise is a lame attempt at an excuse.
 
Thomas Paul
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As to whether the black box in PA will reveal anything:
"In fact, much of the debris recorded at the crash site so far was said to be in pieces no larger than a briefcase. A team of archeologists were at work digging for evidence in the huge crater left by the crash, using their skills to uncover pieces of evidence from mounds of dirt."
I'll be amazed if the black boxes survived.
 
zulfiqar raza
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I did not write the above article. Its something to comment on. Thanks for your comments.
The steel structure on the WTC was also compromised by the immense weight I would assume, In addition to the heat. However some of the sub components can survive even higher temperatures. Anyways the one in PA should not have been subjected to such high temperatures.
I also dont agree with the author that Afghans have not been defeated in the past 800 years. The reason they survived the Soviet invasion was because the US helped them. The US wanted to bleed the Soviets like the Soviets bled them in Vietnam.
Finally G. W. Bush has repeatedly talked about smoking them out. Which Pakistan has taken to mean that Chemical and Biological weapons will be used. Yes, I dont think the Taliban stand a chance. Thats probably why people here are so eager to join this war.
 
zulfiqar raza
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By the way every one of the hijackers was an Egyptian and a Saudi ?? Shouldn't the US bomb Egypt and Saudia first???
 
Thomas Paul
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The Afghans have never lost a war in 800 years.


Two things:
1) What about the Second Afghan War (1878-1880)
2) They have never fought the USA
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
By the way every one of the hijackers was an Egyptian and a Saudi ?? Shouldn't the US bomb Egypt and Saudia first???

If Egypt or Saudia Arabia had Osama bin Laden and refused to hand him over then my answer would be yes.
 
Thomas Paul
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Actually the last thing I want to do is drop bombs on Afghan civilians. Actually that isn't true. The last thing I want is another attack like last Tuesday's on the USA. If dropping bombs on Afghan civilians is the only way to prevent that then so be it. I would much rather that all countries work together to exterminate terrorism.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
Finally G. W. Bush has repeatedly talked about smoking them out. Which Pakistan has taken to mean that Chemical and Biological weapons will be used.

Too funny! What they mean is that they want to put pressure on countries to force bin Laden out of his hiding place so that we can grab him. The US has signed treaties that prohibit us from using wither biological or chemical weapons.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
Anyways the one in PA should not have been subjected to such high temperatures.

The article says the black boxes can handle: Impact tolerance: 3400 Gs /6.5ms. Does anyone here know enough physics to figure out the force of a plane hitting the ground direct on at 500mph?

 
zulfiqar raza
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The "smoke them out" reference was made much more bluntly to Pakistani officials. According to press reports from there US officials told the Pakistanis that US had the "Capability to smoke them out of there caves". Rightly or wrongly the administration in Pakistan has assumed this to be some form chemical weapons / gas which can penetrate large areas and force people to come out.
But in addition to that most countries have FEB's now. Fuel Explosive Bombs. These bombs diffuse explosive gasses over large areas before igniting which result in air being sucked out of large areas. These were used very successfully by Russians in Afghanistan. However American made stinger missile made it hard for Russians to use that. FEBs have almost same impact as small nuclear weapons without the radioactivity.
Finally I am not saying that passports can never survive a crash but could there be a possibility that these were red herrings??

 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[b]Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
[b]Finally G. W. Bush has repeatedly talked about smoking them out. Which Pakistan has taken to mean that Chemical and Biological weapons will be used.

Too funny! What they mean is that they want to put pressure on countries to force bin Laden out of his hiding place so that we can grab him. The US has signed treaties that prohibit us from using wither biological or chemical weapons.
[/B]


I'm not sure if we have signed any specific treaties saying we wouldn't use them, but I am pretty sure we refuse to sign treaties which would prohibit us doing research and development on chemical/biological weapons. We are a signee to the Geneva Convention however, so whatever that prohibits we are bound by.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited September 20, 2001).]
 
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If you read all of this guys posts, you will find he has gotten most of the Indians on this board mad. He throws out silly articles then says I didn't write it and certainly don't agree with all of it. He throws out inuendo and then claims to be totally for bringing the perps to justice.
 
Thomas Paul
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Chemical and Biological Weapons Treaties at a glance: http://www.stimson.org/cwc/glance.htm
[This message has been edited by Thomas Paul (edited September 20, 2001).]
 
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