I Really Think there is a Saturation of Java Developers

[Anonymous]

There just too many of us these days..
Our Resume may be like a template like this:
J2EE EJB Jsp Weblogic Websphere JNDI JMS etc....

Thinking of adding/changing skill set.....
or career if it market gets worse....

[Anonymous]

so competition will be based on experience..
but there are a lot of experienced java people by now....
competition is so so stiff, even for experienced developers,

I not saying competition is a bad thing,
Im just saying its unfortunate for the rest of of the people who are less experienced....

[Anonymous]

Think I can't blame Java,
Its really a cool language....
Everybody is in love with it...
Like this analogy:
Java is a very beautiful lady..
and there are so many Java Developers (suitors)
wanting to get a piece of her!

[Michael Matola]

Hmm, a "saturation" of Java developers. Is that one of them grouping words like a pod of whales, army of ants, exhaltation of larks...?

[Jamie Robertson]

that sucks. Now it is like any other profession. I'm going to have to try hard to find employment, there will be competition for every job I apply for, and now they are asking for intangible skills? what's that all about? And what do you mean, they aren't going to pay me $100,000? I just went to school for 4 months to learn this!
Nothing like a little competition to make the workforce better, which in turn makes products better.
30% of the people I work with shouldn't have become programmers. But they did, because the money was good and competition was scarce. Actually, when I was originally hired, I shouldn't have been a programmer either! But since then I have gotten my BSc in Comp Sci and think that I know something now!
Note: I'm not saying you have to have a BSc to be a good developer, but you need to educated beyond a single language. Knowing something about databases, math and networks on top of programming definitely made me a better developer

[Jason Menard]

To be honest, while I'm never glad to see people unemployed, I'm glad to see that you pretty much need at least a Bachelor's (CS, IFSM [I Failed Science and Math ], whatever) these days to get hired. Not that people with degrees are necessarily better programmers, but you can at least be fairly certain of some base level of knowledge, as well as a greater potential for being able to adapt beyond any specialized knowledge that might be gained from a technical school.
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Thomas Paul]

Obviously, one solution is to cancel all the H1B visas.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Obviously, one solution is to cancel all the H1B visas.

Ahh... the H1B rears its ugly head and I see no flaming ?

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Obviously, one solution is to cancel all the H1B visas.

If the US Govt would have been a Listed Company, they would have done that too(similar to laying off people. Painful but you have to do it if its hurting your own people)

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <H1B from India>:

Ahh... the H1B rears its ugly head and I see no flaming ?

Why should there be flaming? The purpose of the H1B is to supply workers in industries that are having trouble finding qualified American workers. With so many Americans out of work in the IT industry, it only makes sense to shut down the H1B program.

[Randall Twede]

i find it really ignorant that everyone wants a BS. they act like an AS is nothing. you learn just as much about programming just not all the extra math, science, english and humanities. not everyone can afford to attend university even with financial aid. community colleges have excellent curriculums. in compututer programming there are business couses and some english and math. i plan to go for AS in comuter programming and in computer support. i can do that in 2 years + 1 quarter. then i will have 3 AS degrees. the universities are really bad about transfer credits too
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Randall Twede ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Randall Twede:
you learn just as much about programming just not all the extra math, science, english and humanities.

The courses you take for an AS are roughly equivalent to the courses you take for the first two years of a BS (100 and 200 level courses). Those courses mostly teach the rudiment of programming, the thought processes involved, and the basic skills needed. You have probably gained exposure to a few different languages by this point. Some courses you might take in your first couple years of school for a BS in Computer Science include two semesters of "Computer Science" which teach you basic programming methods and concepts (usually learning C and C++ along the way), Discrete Mathematics, Assembly Language, 2-3 semesters of Calculus, and Linear Algebra. The math you learn during the first two years is essential for the next two years.
The next two years (300-400 level courses) you learn the theory necessary as well as the analytical skills required to become an effective, well-rounded programmer. In addition you have learned software engineering practices, and been given exposure to hardware and software topics that lie outside of programming (networks and databases for example). Your third and fourth year courses might include data structures, computer organization/architecture, programming languages, software engineering, algorithms, operating systems, networks, databases, automata, and statistics.
I'm not arguing with you that people with an AS, or even no degree, can't be good programmers, but I will say that, on average, the person with the BS probably has a greater potential to be able to adapt to a wide variety of projects, situations, and technologies.
Nowadays it looks like more and more companies are looking first for people with a Master's. Before long you'll probably need a PhD to get a job.
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Randall Twede]

true and not true...in the 2 years they also teach databases and networing and operating systems..all they leave out is the extra stuff to "make you more well rounded"

[Jason Menard]

I would argue that there is some difference between fourth year courses in networks, databases, and operating systems, compared to second year courses on the same subject. Because other third year courses are often prerequisites to take these courses, the course material is able to go into more depth (on the theoretical level at least).
As for people with a BS having only extra stuff to make you more rounded compared with the AS, I think that might be a misconception. In my case at least, the amount of arts, humanities, science, etc... that I was required to take are nothing that isn't required of any Community College student. The remainder of my courses are just about all technical, except for a few electives I chose just to explore other interests.
To break it down, depending on the school and state, all college students (community or otherwise) are required to have around 30 semester hours of general requirements (art, humanities, language, science, etc...). An AS requires about 60 credits to complete, and a BAS requires 120 credits. That leaves the AS with no more than 30 credits for courses specific to computer science or whatever. Probably less because generally some room is left for electives. A BS program generally requires about 60 credits of courses specific to the program you are enrolled in (e.g. Computer Science), leaving around 30 more for electives. In addition at least 45 of the 120 credits must be from third or fourth year courses.
Again, I'm not arguing that people with an AS (or no degree) can't be good programmers, I'm just pointing out the differences.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why should there be flaming? The purpose of the H1B is to supply workers in industries that are having trouble finding qualified American workers. With so many Americans out of work in the IT industry, it only makes sense to shut down the H1B program.

It only makes sense to shut down the program if it's true purpose, as oppsed to its stated purpose, were really to offset a labor shortage. As we all know though, that is not the true purpose of the program as applied to the IT sector at least.

[Thomas Paul]

I recently saw an ad that a company was running in India for H1B programmers to come and work in NYC. There are hundreds of Java programmers out of work in NYC! Why do we need to hire people from India? I have no problem with immigrants. I do have a problem when a program is being abused and that is exactly what is happening with the H1B program.

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I recently saw an ad that a company was running in India for H1B programmers to come and work in NYC. There are hundreds of Java programmers out of work in NYC! Why do we need to hire people from India? I have no problem with immigrants. I do have a problem when a program is being abused and that is exactly what is happening with the H1B program.

I totally agree with this and can understand how Americans can be feeling.I was shocked to know last month that one of my friend went to the US on a new H1 Visa. I mean, with the number of Americans who are looking for a job and are skilled, why do they still approve H1B Visas.The companies are to be blamed to some extent but They are just making use of the rules to Increase their profits(which is the key goal of any business) But its upto the American Authorities to stop the H1B process if they think its hurting their own people(which it is).
I just hope this does not build into a Hate-wave against Indians, Chinese and other H1B Applicants.
A Work-Permit Guy in London
Tintin

[Anonymous]

Guys, I understand your sentiments against H1B
I totally agree with that there are a lot of companies abusing the program...
Just wanna let you know Im on H1B here in US
And Im frustrated and afraid because of everything happenning
Please dont flame me for saying this, I want to stay here in America, I love it here..
I want to become a citizen.. I dont wanna go back
Because its tough to "survive" in my country

[JiaPei Jen]

So much has been said about the H1B program. What should the actions be taken to make the US Congress or NIS to rectify the program? Can people put heads together to think of approaches and steps to achieve that goal just like the way we work together to prepare for the certification exams.

[Corey McGlone]

The H1B visas have put the US in a difficult position. Let me try to make an analogy.
You're the parent of two kids and you own a farm. This year, the weather has been great and the crops have grown so well that you and your two kids can't possible harvest it all. So, in order to get the work done, you call over the neighbor kids, whose crops aren't doing as well, to help out. In exchange, you give them some of the food.
Now, the following year, the neighbor kids are expecting the same deal, but the weather is lousy and your crops have gone bust. You barely have enough to feed yourself and your own kids, much less any of the neighbors.
What do you do? Do you kick the neighbors out? Do you starve your own children?
It's a difficult situation to be in, unforunately. The program had a good goal to begin with but, like many things, it doesn't work so well when the economy isn't booming.
My two cents about a topic I don't know much about.
Corey

[Jason Menard]

I just hope this does not build into a Hate-wave against Indians, Chinese and other H1B Applicants.

I don't think people blame the H1B holders for any of this. It is the fault of our government and even more so the fault of US companies who engage in this program.

Originally posted by <Wasabe King>:
Guys, I understand your sentiments against H1B
I totally agree with that there are a lot of companies abusing the program...
Just wanna let you know Im on H1B here in US
And Im frustrated and afraid because of everything happenning
Please dont flame me for saying this, I want to stay here in America, I love it here..
I want to become a citizen.. I dont wanna go back
Because its tough to "survive" in my country

I am all for immigration, since it is the basis that our country is founded on. Actually I think we should make it easier for those with desired skills and their families to attain citizenship.
We have some Americans who don't seem to care too much for their own country anyways, so if we need to ship them out to make some room for people who do want to be here...

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Corey McGlone:
The H1B visas have put the US in a difficult position. Let me try to make an analogy.
You're the parent of two kids and you own a farm. This year, the weather has been great and the crops have grown so well that you and your two kids can't possible harvest it all. So, in order to get the work done, you call over the neighbor kids, whose crops aren't doing as well, to help out. In exchange, you give them some of the food.

The H1B program was specifically designed to provide workers only when there was a shortage. It was never meant to be permanent. Workers were told when they came here that they might have to leave at any time.
I don't blame the people from foreign countries. If I was from a third world country I would probably want to come to the USA as well. I am all for immigration especially immigrants who want to live here permanently and become citizens.
I am going to write my congressman and ask him to look into the situation. I find it hard to believe that we are still allowing H1B visas for programmers in this market.

[JiaPei Jen]

It takes more than "one person" writing to congressmen/congresswomen to make something happen. This is what I mean people should act as a group to have the voice heard. People should think how to organize this group and what to do to be effective.

[Guy Allard]

Hi - As all have said, it is certainly not the fault of the H1B's. I look with favor on anyone wanting to become a citizen. My favor is witheld from those who want to 'hit and run', and I think there are some.
For those thinking of writing their representative - I'd suggest first finding out how he/she voted that last time H1B expansions were approved. Ditto your Senators.
I don't remember about the House, but I think there were ony 1 or 2 dissenting votes in the Senate.
Before you write - please think for a while: 'follow the money'.
Regards to all, Guy

[Michael Ernest]

Corey is pretty much right on in this. Work visas get in the pipeline and sometimes take up to a year to process. Once that application is accepted, no matter how long it takes, the federal government will honor it unless the sponsoring employer renegs.
H1B's are seldom used to make up for lack of talent in the Silicon Valley; they're used instead to make up for the lack of low-priced talent -- there's your abuse! (Always follow the money) And to be frank, there are lots of decent-paying jobs in this area unfilled because U.S. citizens don't want 'em. They have hellatios travel requirements, long hours in poorly-ventilated rooms doing tedious work, pigeon-hole (very narrow technical) skill requirements, or represent unlikely opportunities for long term work. H1B's fill a very definite need in high tech.
Just because people here are out of work doesn't mean they aren't looking down their noses at those jobs. This industry relies on people who will adapt at any price. H1B's fill a need.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Just because people here are out of work doesn't mean they aren't looking down their noses at those jobs. This industry relies on people who will adapt at any price. H1B's fill a need.

As someone who has been out of work for 4 months I resent that comment. I have not turned my nose up at any job and with two children to care for (one of them is disabled) I am in no position to turn my nose up at any job. In that time I have had exactly two interviews. I am very happy that you have a job but when you start talking about something that you don't have a clue about I wish you would shut your face.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
As someone who has been out of work for 4 months I resent that comment. I have not turned my nose up at any job and with two children to care for (one of them is disabled) I am in no position to turn my nose up at any job. In that time I have had exactly two interviews. I am very happy that you have a job but when you start talking about something that you don't have a clue about I wish you would shut your face.

Thomas,
I see by your bio on this site that you are somewhere in the NYC area. I know not everybody is in a position to relocate their family, but have you considered expanding your job search a few hours further south on I95? The Baltimore-DC-Northern Va area is still pretty strong, particularly if you are a US citizen (even more so if you have a government security clearence). A quick search on "java" on the Wasnington Post returned the maximum of 500 hits, and the Baltimore Sun returned 240 hits. I would think someone with your experience would have no problem quickly finding a job down here. And if you want to remain in academia (your bio saysw you taught at Hofstra), there is an insane amount of universities here as well.
If it is a concern, from what I understand, this area also has some of the finest healthcare in the nation, particularly for pediatrics, such as John Hopkins Children's Center in Baltimore and Children's Hospital in DC. There are also very many resources for families with special-needs children in this area, such as the Kennedy Kreiger Institute in Baltimore, which you may already be familiar with.
Anyway, just letting you know that the economy down here may be in a bit better shape then it is up there, if that is an option you are able to explore.
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
but have you considered expanding your job search a few hours further south on I95?

I am pretty sure Tom has not
Sorry for being cynical. It's easy to solve other guy's problems; these are only our problems that cannot be solved easily.
Tom, you see - just like your problems with finding a job could be solved by a couple of clicks , the same way Michael's problems can be solved just because he still has a job.
I guess I am the only optimist on this UBB.
Jason, I am sorry if I offended you. I am sure you wanted to help.
Guys, you all: Thomas, Jason and Michael - you are so I cannot understand why you attack each other
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Originally posted by Corey McGlone:

Now, the following year, the neighbor kids are expecting the same deal, but the weather is lousy and your crops have gone bust. You barely have enough to feed yourself and your own kids, much less any of the neighbors.
What do you do? Do you kick the neighbors out? Do you starve your own children?
Corey

That was a good analogy,Corey. But what my point was that you should stop calling more neighbour kids once you know that there is a draught.That would at least stop the problem from growing.
I know its not just a Valve that you close down when u dont want the water, but if actions are not taken soon, we will have more dis-illusioned and angry Americans and that is what everyone must avoid at all costs.
Tintin

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

I am pretty sure Tom has not
Sorry for being cynical. It's easy to solve other guy's problems; these are only our problems that cannot be solved easily.
Tom, you see - just like your problems with finding a job could be solved by a couple of clicks , the same way Michael's problems can be solved just because he still has a job.
I guess I am the only optimist on this UBB.
Jason, I am sorry if I offended you. I am sure you wanted to help.
Guys, you all: Thomas, Jason and Michael - you are so I cannot understand why you attack each other
[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

I am not trying to solve any problems. What I am doing is stating that the job market a few hours south of NYC is still good for Java developers. Somebody not from this area might not know that. I do not think anybody's problems can be solved with a few clicks, landing a job is still tough no matter how you look at it. Further, people looking for jobs are usually NOT in a position to relocate (a move can be very traumatic for a family), but *if* they are, I think knowing where the market may be stronger and the local conditions there is helpful. If not, no harm no foul.
I make the same statement for anyone who is a US citizen seeking IT employment. If it is an option, the Baltimore-DC-Northern Va area is worth a look.
[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jamie Robertson]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
As someone who has been out of work for 4 months I resent that comment. I have not turned my nose up at any job and with two children to care for (one of them is disabled) I am in no position to turn my nose up at any job. In that time I have had exactly two interviews. I am very happy that you have a job but when you start talking about something that you don't have a clue about I wish you would shut your face.

Thomas, I feel for you. I will be in the same position come the end of march, as my contract is up. There is a good chance that they won't renew it due to restructuring and other politics going on. I live in a small community in Northern Ontario and even during the boom, there wasn't too much around here. Now I am thinking of moving, but I have a young son. He how do I tell him that he can no longer see his his best friend? How do I tell him that he can no longer play with his cousins? He can't be spoiled by his grandparents or aunts and uncles anymore. If it was just my wife and I the decision would be a no brainer. But I just can't bring myself to do this to my child. I would rather relocate myself to another city than drag my family with me(closest major city is an 8 hour drive). But then how do I tell him that he can't see his daddy anymore??
*&(*E#&#^*&^!
I think I'd rather serve fries at McDonalds than do this to may family .
Keep trying Thomas. I admire you for your courage in these trying times.
Jamie

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I make the same statement for anyone who is a US citizen seeking IT employment. If it is an option, the Baltimore-DC-Norther Va area is worth a look.

We have thought about it because we do have some family in Northern VA and Mikey is seen by the director of Kennedy-Krieger. However, most of our family is here including our aging parents and our school district is excellent for Mikey so we would prefer to stay in the area. If things don't get better soon, I'll either be working at Starbuck's or moving.

[Jamie Robertson]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I'll either be working at Starbuck's...[/QB]

Now this is something you can use on your resume!
Work Experience:
Starbucks - JavaBean Specialist
-responsible for the conversion of java beans to ordinary java
-resposible for the complete lifecycle of the project from the bean to the java

[JiaPei Jen]

I live in the Washington D.C./Northern Virginia area. It is a tough market here unless you have active top security clearance. With the clearance, you may find a nice position in a couple of days. Without the clearance, there is no rosy picture in this area.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
I live in the Washington D.C./Northern Virginia area. It is a tough market here unless you have active top security clearance. With the clearance, you may find a nice position in a couple of days. Without the clearance, there is no rosy picture in this area.

Are you a US citizen with no immediate family ties (e.g. parents) to a foreign country? Unethical as it may seem, I would not be surprised if government contractors discriminate against even US citizens who still have close ties to another country, because it would be more difficult to get those people the required accesses in some cases.
I know a guy who although his family is American several generations back, he is married to a woman from another country, and there is no end to the difficulties he has had to go through as a government contractor with attaining the proper accesses. Most employers would have probably given up on him, but I think he had the job before the wife.

[JiaPei Jen]

Yes, I am U.S. citizen. "Do not judge" in accordance with the name that I register at the Java Ranch. I think you misunderstand what I mean "active top security cleanrance". What I mean is that lots of job openings in the Washington, D.C. area are government contract jobs and they require "active" security clearance. Only the Federal Government can sponsor people for getting security clearance and it is expensive. Those Government contractors in the private sector must hire "people with active security clearance to work on the Government contracts" but cannot sponsor people to get security clearance.
I obtained a security clearance without any difficulty about seven years ago for a civil service position. I did not accept the position and have worked in the private sector ever since. The security clearance I had has expired long time ago.
It is a common knowledge in the Washington, D.C. area (I have lived here for more than twenty years) that those who are with active security clearance and are not that experienced in the IT field may/can get nice jobs easily in the IT field these days. Those national security and defense related jobs have been plenty especially after 9/11/2001. And there are not that many people having both "active" security clearance and IT knowledge.
The job market in the private sector (I mean the jobs that are not government contract related) in the Washington, D.C. area is similar to that of the most of the places in the U.S. Some are lucky, some are not. Overall, it it not an easy market.
Sorry for contradicing your optimistic view about the job market in this area. But it is the cold fact. My message is just for people's information. I have no intention to have a debate with anybody.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
Those Government contractors in the private sector must hire "people with active security clearance to work on the Government contracts" but cannot sponsor people to get security clearance.

Sorry but that is not true. In fact it can't be true if you think about it. Where are these government contractors getting their people from then? They are not all ex-government employees. A contractor can (in fact must) sponsor their employees for the clearance as well as pay to have the clearance conducted. The contractors naturally prefer an active clearance because (a)they don't have to pay as much, and (b) there is no guarantee that somebody off the street will be able to pass the background investigation.

And there are not that many people having both "active" security clearance and IT knowledge.

And this is why these companies lately are more willing to hire somebody without a clearance. I will grant that it is more difficult to land a job then it would be if you had an active clearance, but I have known too many people here who have done it, many of them right out of school. If your employer wants you bad enough, they will do the paperwork and spend the money that is necessary. All that being said, not every government contractor does something that requires a super secret James Bond clearance or whatever. If you actually look at the job ads you will see that while the majority of them require US citizenship, the majority are not asking for an active clearance.

Sorry for contradicing your optimistic view about the job market in this area. But it is the cold fact. My message is just for people's information. I have no intention to have a debate with anybody.

That's okay. I understand that it may be possible for two different people in the same area to hold different views on the subject depending on their situations and experiences. I still maintain that the effects of the recession on jobs in our industry are far less here than most other places in the country.

[Anonymous]

Thomas,
I was looking at Sun's website and found a lot of job openings. A person with your qualifications should have no problems in clincing one very easily. Good Luck.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Ex Calibur>:
I was looking at Sun's website and found a lot of job openings. A person with your qualifications should have no problems in clincing one very easily. Good Luck.

A lot of job openings but no one's actually hiring.

[Ashley Pratt]

Originally posted by Corey McGlone:

You're the parent of two kids and you own a farm. This year, the weather has been great and the crops have grown so well that you and your two kids can't possible harvest it all. So, in order to get the work done, you call over the neighbor kids, whose crops aren't doing as well, to help out. In exchange, you give them some of the food.

Sorry but in my view, regarding to your example, the neighbour crops(market in other country) is also doing well, but you call them by giving them more money as compared to their salaries in their countries.
And many people are called by Body Shoppers but some are called by Software development houses also, so those people left their jobs, left their famalies. So it would be tough for them also if the government cancels their H1B also in between and send them back.
Instead of that they can reduce the quota of H1B's to improve the situation.
-Ash
[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ashley ]