The Olympic Spirit?!?

[Jason Menard]

Does anyone else think some of the countries, athletes, and others involved with the Olympics this year are behaving like a bunch of children? Has the mantra of these games become "cry and throw a tantrum if something doesn't go your way"? I'm talking of course about the South Koreans and the Russians who have both threatened to take their toys and go home if things don't go their way.
The Koreans are even talking about not showing up for the Summer Olympics in Athens, all because their skater was disqualified after making an illegal move in 1500m short track (after another South Korean took down three other racers in 1000m short track the night before). In a sickening childish display the Korean threw down his countries flag and commenced to pout when he learned he had been disqualified. The last place Italian skater, siding with the Korean, stated that a "rifle should be taken to Ohno". I'm no short track expert, but after seeing replay after replay plus rules explanations ad infinitum, it seems that it was a clear cut case that the Korean was trying to throw an illegal block, maybe that's why the other two skaters agreed. I did think the Korean got robbed though before I had seen the replay and at first felt bad for him listening to the stadium boo his "win". After seeing the replay it was pretty obvious, and Ohno's theatrics drew attention to it as well. The Koreans are now even threatening to sue the individual referee, an Australian. Maybe the South Koreans think the westerners are exacting payback for the Roy Jones fight, and how boxing was conducted in genera,in the Seoul Olympics?
The Russians are complaining about too many power plays for the Czechs in hockey and I think just generally because they aren't winning as many medals as they are used to. They have also threatened to go home crying, although some think it is just posturing in order to get favourable judging for women's skating and men's hockey. They are also still whining about having to share the double's skating gold medal with the Canadians.
Isn't the point of these games supposed to be people coming together in the spirit of sportsmanship? Don't any of these people have the least amount of shame? If we all had known that the Canadian protest over the gold in skating would lead to all these losers whining that they too got robbed, maybe we would have thought it not so good of an idea to overturn those results. Maybe everyone involved should just try to keep politics out of it, graciously accept losing, and behave like adults.
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Thomas Paul]

You are joking, right? Sportsmanship in the Olympics? Where do people get their strange ideas?

[Johannes de Jong]

Actually I'm quite often not that proud of being Dutch when our sportsmen take part in any event. Mostly with them its about the money and not much else .
But heck I think our skater Uytdehaage did us proud when he stood and cheered on Parra when he saw how fantastic Para was skating, and that while Para was taking away the gold from him.
So don't knock the whole Olympics based on a few incidents, there were great moments of sportsmanship all over.
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Johannes de Jong ]

[Jason Menard]

Yeah, I think it is great to see other athletes cheering on the people who just beat them. I would say that probably most of the athletes know what the games are about (besides being about marketing that is ). I mean it's not like a silver or bronze Olympic medal is anything to sneeze at, it's a great honor.
Not knocking the Olympics though, I really enjoy them. Heck, I even watched curling (the Canadian women's team has some nice looking curling babes on it ). It does seem that the whining going on in this one is worse than years past though.

[Jane Griscti]

LOL ... you gotta love the Russians; they're masters at applying the rule "the best defense is a good offense"

[Anonymous]

To me, a person should be able to indicate that they don't like the way things turned out. Like they do in the NBA when they get caught in an obvious foul. They make a face or throw up their hands in a display, but they basically know that they got what they deserved.
These atheletes compete in tons of competitions and are well-versed in the rules of their respective sports. Nobody should be surprised when they are penalized for bad behavior. The worst they should do is throw up their hands and make a face. Then like a true athelete and sportsman, <BIG>let it drop!</BIG>

[frank davis]

I don't think the troublesome antics of the Russians and Koreans are going away anytime soon. The best we can do to appease them is to make the protests themselves a sport or part of the competition. The Russians would at least go home with another gold in the protest event and everybody would be happy.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
I don't think the troublesome antics of the Russians and Koreans are going away anytime soon. The best we can do to appease them is to make the protests themselves a sport or part of the competition. The Russians would at least go home with another gold in the protest event and everybody would be happy.

I can see it now:
Commentator 1: "You know you've got to really admire the way the Korean not only threw down his flag, but also stepped on it. To accomplish this on an iced surface without losing his footing really ups the level of difficulty. Factor that in with threats to sue the Australian judge, boycott the closing ceremonies, and pull out of the Summer Olympics and you have a Korean team that is going to be tough for the Russians to overcome."
Commentator 2: "I couldn't agree with you more, but I think the Russians have them beat when it comes to marks for artistic expression. Claiming that the elevated red blood cell count in their disqualified athlete was not due to doping but in fact was due to her menstrual cycle is a stroke of genius. I think those artistic marks plus the high technical difficulty involved in making a deal with the French judge might be just enough to push them past the Koreans in this competition."

[frank davis]

LOL!

[Erik Dark]

I agree the whining of the Russians and Koreans is pathetic, but maybe it’s fed by the overwhelming (if not disgusting) patriotism showed during this Games by the host….
Erik Dark
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Erik Dark ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Erik Dark:
I agree the whining of the Russians and Koreans is pathetic, but maybe it’s fed by the overwhelming (if not disgusting) patriotism showed during this Games by the host….

The Russians are mad because the Canadians got a gold and they almost lost to the Czechs. Yup... must be US patriotism that is annoying them.

[Erik Dark]

I didn't say must be but may be fed by...
Then again...maybe it's just annoying me!

I think our skater Uytdehaage did us proud when he stood and cheered on Parra when he saw how fantastic Para was skating

Where was Parra tonight? I don't blame him though because it's my opinion a top-athlete should be sick of losing for a moment (which doesn't mean being a bad loser). So sorry Johannes, it didn't make me proud seeing Uytdehaaghe cheer at Parra (who was skating fantastic, no discussion on that).
Erik Dark

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Erik Dark:
but maybe it’s fed by the overwhelming (if not disgusting) patriotism showed during this Games by the host….
Erik Dark
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Erik Dark ]

Tough. Get over it. Our country, and predominantly our people in the stands (and Canadians). If they feel moved to make spontaneous displays of national pride, that's their perogative. Fans of other nations there are doing it as well, they just aren't as well represented. And if fans of other nations feel moved to display patriotism at the games, more power to them. You don't like it? Turn the channel. If you have no pride in your nation or its athletes, that's your problem. We feel differently.
The US has been going through a lot recently and if some are using the Olympics as a focus of national pride and national healing, again I say that's too bad for you if you don't like it. As any long time visitor to our country can tell you, Americans are generally a very patriotic lot, particularly in times of crisis. It is built in to our history and national psyche.
We're not here to cater to your European sensibilities, and I don't think the people putting on these "disgusting" displays of patriotism really give a rat's ass how you feel about it or if it offends you. Who the hell are you anyway to judge how our people should feel about our country or how we should display it, in OUR country?
That ignorant statement was simply another (not so) subtle form of European anti-Americanism that seems to be in vogue among many (not all) on that continent. I can assume the only reason you would spew that crap on a board with a large percentage of Americans on it is to be provocative. Some of us may not find it offensive, but some of us certainly do.

[Erik Dark]

Sorry I offended you (or a lot of Americans), it wasn't my intention. I feel even more sorry using the little addition between parenthesis in my post. That was, reading it back, way overdone.
I do have pride in my nation and it's athletes but don't have the tendency to spread that all around. That may be something I think is in the nature of Europeans in general and that's were we collide. Accept it or fight it! (I accept it but the fact that the majority at this PUBLIC board is American doesn't make me stop giving my opinion, should have done it more subtle though!).

Who the hell are you anyway to judge how our people should feel about...

Let's make this clear, I didn't want to judge anyone or anything...we've seen at this Games where judgement leads to!
Erik Dark
European

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Erik Dark:
...the fact that the majority at this PUBLIC board is American doesn't make me stop giving my opinion, should have done it more subtle though

I don't think anyone (at least not me) is suggesting anyone stop offering their opinions. That's kind of the point of this forum. Most of us around here have been around enough to know who the prime audience to our statements is likey to be if we don't want to offend anyone (which is so damn difficult in this forum anyway). If do you want to be provocative though, that's alright too, I'm always up for it. I would prefer reasoned debate (maybe "Is American patriotism at the games offensive to other nationalities?" or something) but I'll take it as it comes either way.

[Jason Menard]

More complaints from the hockey results it seems.
Russian whine leaves sour taste
I tried to post an opposing Russian view, but most every Russian news site in English wants its visitors to either register or pay to view the news.

[Thomas Paul]

The idea that Russians are "natural villians" is a bit on the absurd side. When they were "damned stinkin' pinko commies" maybe but not now. Now they are just a bunch of whining little girls. Just like Team USA was 4 years ago.

[Thomas Paul]

I just saw that the Russians wanted a gold medal for their skater in the women's skating! Sara Hughes clearly was the best and skated flawlessly and yet the Russian judge ranked her 4th!!! And the Russians are complaining! I wish the Russians would go home. I think they have demonstrated that they don't deserve the 2012 games.

[Johannes de Jong]

"So sorry Johannes, it didn't make me proud seeing Uytdehaaghe cheer at Parra"
But why should it make you proud Erik I was talking about my feelings

[Jason Menard]

Is it possible that "winning" at the games just means more for some nations than others? The old Soviet block nations always seemed to have that win-at-all-costs mentality. These were nations to whom international sports were so important that they had state-run schools that children entered at an incredibly young age with the only goal being to turn out the greatest athletes in the world, again at any cost (the East German program and the Soviet gymnastic schools come to mind).
Maybe looking at it in this light at least goes some way to explaining their actions, as absurd as they are. I mean could it be possible that there is an arrogance that doesn't allow for the possibility that their own athletes may not always be the best, and that the only possible explanation for not winning is because of some outside bias or tampering?

[Jason Menard]

Is it necessary to provide the disclaimer that when in conversations like this we are referring only to the conduct of the athletes and officials involved in the sports in the context of these games, as opposed to every single person who represents a nation? Effectively the conversation is only about different sports teams. That these teams happen to represent a particular nationality is immaterial. We may as well be talking about the Red Sox and the Yankees.
As far as obnoxious comments, if you tell whoever made the comment(s) that you found to be obnoxious what the comment was, maybe they could clarify any misunderstandings. There is no need in basking in a revelation if it is a mistaken one that might be cleared up through simple commnuication.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I just saw that the Russians wanted a gold medal for their skater in the women's skating! Sara Hughes clearly was the best and skated flawlessly and yet the Russian judge ranked her 4th!!! And the Russians are complaining! I wish the Russians would go home. I think they have demonstrated that they don't deserve the 2012 games.

In case there is any question, I am, of course, referring to the Russian Olympic committee.

[Mapraputa Is]

Regarding obnoxious comments.
Once I was going to mention WWII events and say that the Soviet Army defeated Germans - that was how we habitually referred to those events in the fUSSR. Then I thought that I am not in the fUSSR, and this site is visited by people from all around the world, including Germans. I thought it would be nice if I liberated them from the mental work of de-associating themselves with "Germans" in this particular context as opposed to "Germans" in general. I said "fascist troops" instead, and I do not feel that my post lost a grain of truth or directness. Actually, the opposite. I think, it's good that I made more specific = more exact statement. To say "Germans" would be nothing but sloppy thinking, really. Making a public statement and not thinking how your words can be accepted by those to whom they refer to would be obnoxious. But this is only my opinion.
Is it possible that "winning" at the games just means more for some nations than others? <...>I mean could it be possible that there is an arrogance that doesn't allow for the possibility that their own athletes may not always be the best, and that the only possible explanation for not winning is because of some outside bias or tampering?
I asked my friends in Russia what they think about this, and they said that basically Russian people think judging was often unfair. However, everybody agreed that judging of hockey game the USA-Russia was fair. So some nations does allow the possibility that their own athletes may not always be the best.
Is it necessary to provide the disclaimer that when in conversations like this we are referring only to the conduct of the athletes and officials involved in the sports in the context of these games, as opposed to every single person who represents a nation?
Must be my poor English... I apologize in advance. Jason, when you are saying "Is it possible that "winning" at the games just means more for some nations" - what do you really means by "nations"? "Conduct of the athletes"? "Officials involved in the sports in the context of these games"? Could some nations be more specific in the future and say exactly what they mean? Some other nations may be too stupid to grasp the context.

[Roy Ben Ami]

BUT the soviet army did defeat the germans in ww2!

[Thomas Paul]

First, the Germans did get their butts handed to them by the USSR so why not just say so?
I asked my friends in Russia what they think about this, and they said that basically Russian people think judging was often unfair. However, everybody agreed that judging of hockey game the USA-Russia was fair. So some nations does allow the possibility that their own athletes may not always be the best.In my opinion, the judging was fine. I wish all the olympic committees acted like Apolo Ohno who was as graceful in defeat as he was in victory.

[John Lee]

But hopefully there will be no more world war again. An all-out nuclear war will bring the earth back to stone age, if not completely destroy it.
Nuclear war head can be made fairly quickly. Country like Germany or Japan perhaps can make nuclear war head in a matter of days, and a nuclear power can also expand its number of war head quickly, nevertheless, it is very expensive to maintain a large number of nuclear war head, like US or Russia did.
So when you attack a country with nuclear war head, unless it is Palestinian, then expect to receive counter attack, even the enemy just has one submarine left.

[Roy Ben Ami]

unless it is Palestinian.

nice one.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
To say "Germans" would be nothing but sloppy thinking, really. Making a public statement and not thinking how your words can be accepted by those to whom they refer to would be obnoxious. But this is only my opinion.

Actually saying "Germans" would be historically accurate thinking. The fact that the "fascist" army was the German army is indisputable. The more specific and correct term is "German",since it was the German army that was beaten, fascist or otherwise. My opinion is that using the term fascist, while also being true, has more of a negative connotation than you may have wanted to portray. Let me give a counter example. Which of these sounds more neutral and less offensive: "The Mujahadeen defeated the Soviet troops.", or "The Mujahadeen defeated the Communist Troops". IMHO the terms fascist and communist are placing value judgements where maybe that isn't the intent. Further, political correctness is often a tool used to rewrite history, as your example somewhat indicates. Stick to the facts without emotion and say what you mean, don't try to attempt to rewrite history because it is unpleasant. But this is getting off track...
In the context of the discussion we were having, I should have realized that while the meanings were clear to myself and others involved, they may not have been properly understood by a worldwide audience. As an example, when I watched the Canadian women's hockey team defeat the Amerian team, and then some of the American women were getting all teary-eyed, my reaction was that "The Americans need to quit their boo-hooing, they just won a silver medal." Does this mean that I am telling Americans everywhere to quit their crying? Of course not, to my thinking that is absurd. I am telling the hocky team and their coaches to quit their crying. But again, while this train of thought is obvious to me (and apparently others involved in the discussion), it is apparently not obvious to everyone, and that is my fault for being inprecise in my use of language.

I asked my friends in Russia what they think about this, and they said that basically Russian people think judging was often unfair. However, everybody agreed that judging of hockey game the USA-Russia was fair. So some nations does allow the possibility that their own athletes may not always be the best.

I'm sure that they thought it was fair. The IOC bent the procedures for that match to allow only non-North American referees to participate in an attempt to placate the Russian *Olympic officials* who had threatened to boycott the closing ceremonies. When a certain percentage of players in a match is from the NHL, NHL referees are to be used. Since pretty much every player in that match was an NHL player, NHL referees had been scheduled. Instead, the refs were replaced with all Europeans referees. I don't think the American *team or officials* really cared all that much (although NHL style hockey and European hockey is significantly different), but the importan thing to the IOC was that the Russian *team and officials* were placated. So I would have been very surprised if your friends felt that the match was not refereed fairly.

Must be my poor English... I apologize in advance. Jason, when you are saying "Is it possible that "winning" at the games just means more for some nations" - what do you really means by "nations"? "Conduct of the athletes"? "Officials involved in the sports in the context of these games"? Could some nations be more specific in the future and say exactly what they mean? Some other nations may be too stupid to grasp the context.

Let me rephrase in lengthy, very precise, very unambiguous language.... Is it possible that "winning" at the games means more politically to the governments of some nations, their athletes, and their officials responsible for directing and implementing their international sports programs? If a government places great political importance on victory at the games, as the Soviets appear to have done in the past, additional pressure would no doubt be placed on the athletes and the officials reposonsible for directing and implementing the programs. This would in turn increase the importance of winning at the games as far as the athletes and the officials reposonsible for directing and implementing the programs are concerned.
As one example of an athlete under such pressure, an athlete *representing the team from Spain* who was recently disqualified for doping, had received a personal call from the President/Prime Minister of Spain. As another historical example of such pressure, the women swimmers who *represented the teams from East Germany* were forced to take steroids in order to improve their chances at the games. I would say that the government of East Germany felt winning at swimming was politically more important than it might have been to say the government of New Zealand. The importance of the games to the people of a nation is only relative to the importance of the games to a government of a nation.
So again, this nation appologizes for not being laser accurate in his use of the language and bears full responsibility for any international incidents that have ensued. There is one question though.... Have other nations even been watching and closely following the Olympic games so as to be aware of the specific events being discussed and their contexts?
**Side note to the games in reference to the short track event mentioned earlier... an athlete *representing the United States team* who was expected to medal in an event was disqualified in that event. His infraction was technically similar to that of an athlete *representing the South Korean team* who was disqualified n an earlier match, therefore giving the victory to the athlete *representing the United States team*. The athlete *representing the South Korean team* through his flag to the ground, stepped on it, and death threats apparently from fans and supporters of the athlete *representing the South Korean team* were leveled at the winning athlete *representing the United States team*. When that same athlete *representing the United States team* was later disqualified in another event, he simply smiled, shrugged his shoulders, and said "that's short track." Is it possible that winning had more importance to one than the other?
[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Axel Janssen]

What I did not understand in these winter olimpics was that the canadian - u.s.a. hockey final had a canadian referee.
A soccer/footbal final German vs. Netherlands with a german/dutch referee would be the end of FIFA (World Soccer Organization).
Axel

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
What I did not understand in these winter olimpics was that the canadian - u.s.a. hockey final had a canadian referee.
A soccer/footbal final German vs. Netherlands with a german/dutch referee would be the end of FIFA (World Soccer Organization).
Axel

It was also an NHL ref. There was no problem with that as the teams representing Canada and the United States were not worried that the refereeing would be biased.

[Axel Janssen]

Yes. We have UEFA (european footbal union) referees. But a match say: england vs. italy with an italian referee is an absolute tabu. Or Nigeria vs. Cameroon with a nigerian referee. Or Argentina vs. Chile with a Chilean referee. You cant present this to the public. They would get mad. Sounds like sex with animals.
A question to commonwealth fraction: A cricket match India vs. England with an english referee: Do you think it is possible
[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Thomas Paul]

What I did not understand in these winter olimpics was that the canadian - u.s.a. hockey final had a canadian referee.

NHL refs are professionals. The USA NHL players I am sure would prefer a professional NHL referee (even one from Canada) over a referee from Finland with no NHL experience. And they were right to feel that way as the referee did a great job and allowed the skill of the players to determine the outcome of the game.

[Oleg Shklyar]

I just realized that the context of discussions here is "political-nationalist" oriented, otherwise ... why there are so many anti-Russian/Korean postings here?
Are you guys Java-oriented (RANCH HANDs and BARTENDERs) or politicians???
There are bunch of "dirty" topics for discussion( Afgan/Vietnam/Korean wars; Irangate/Zippergate(*gates); Hiroshima/Nagasaki nuclear attacks; Jugoslaviya and long list of them ).
But the question is: DO WE NEED IT???
If "yes", probably not at that website.
If "no", DO NOT RIP UP and SET TO FIGHT Canadians and Americans ( those nations are artificial - great mix of world-wide representatives) against Russians.
"Cold War" miracle is over...
I'm in global multicultural hi-tech society... Where are you???

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Yes. We have UEFA (european footbal union) referees. But a match say: england vs. italy with an italian referee is an absolute tabu. Or Nigeria vs. Cameroon with a nigerian referee. Or Argentina vs. Chile with a Chilean referee. You cant present this to the public. They would get mad.

We all know what happens with Europeans and soccer. We have seen the riots on TV many times. How often have you seen a riot break out during a hockey game? Fights at hockey games in the NHL are kept on the ice.

[Michael Ernest]

I just realized that the context of discussions here is "political-nationalist" oriented, otherwise ... why there are so many anti-Russian/Korean postings here?

Because of the Olympics. Because of the bombing of the World Trace Center and the Pentagon. Because pregnant Palestinian woman drive through military checkpoints and can't understand what the fuss is all about. Because one guy in a skating race gets pulled to the ground and gratefully accepts second place, while another can't believe he got caught trying to throw an elbow and steps on his own country's flag in disgust. Because Indians and Pakistanis are using U.S. military missions in Afghanistan as a cover for beating the crap out of each other and trying to tell CNN about the others' atrocities.

Are you guys Java-oriented (RANCH HANDs and BARTENDERs) or politicians???

Yes.

There are bunch of "dirty" topics for discussion( Afgan/Vietnam/Korean wars; Irangate/Zippergate(*gates); Hiroshima/Nagasaki nuclear attacks; Jugoslaviya and long list of them ).
But the question is: DO WE NEED IT???
If "yes", probably not at that website.
If "no", DO NOT RIP UP and SET TO FIGHT Canadians and Americans ( those nations are artificial - great mix of world-wide representatives) against Russians.

It helps little, trying to tell people what not to do. It's even harder, showing them how to do something they don't understand.

I'm in global multicultural hi-tech society... Where are you???
The place I personally am is called Earth, in an area relatively well-aware that the vast majority of the world is neither multi-cultural nor globally aware, much less high-tech in its resources. In terms of global population, my friend, you and I live in a reality most people on this planet have only heard of in stories.

[Jim Yingst]

Are you guys Java-oriented (RANCH HANDs and BARTENDERs) or politicians???
I think you're missing the point of the "Meaningless Drivel" forum. The one thing posts here are not expected to be here, is Java-related.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
NHL refs are professionals. The USA NHL players I am sure would prefer a professional NHL referee (even one from Canada) over a referee from Finland with no NHL experience. And they were right to feel that way as the referee did a great job and allowed the skill of the players to determine the outcome of the game.

Isn't this a little bit like microsoft? Just accepting NHL-referee OS?
In the footbal/soccer-world cup you will see games of european teams running on an african referee OS. Or between latin american teams with an asian referee OS.
[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Isn't this a little bit like microsoft? Just accepting NHL-referee OS?
In the footbal/soccer-world cup you will see games of european teams running on an african referee OS. Or between latin american teams with an asian referee OS.

Would you be willing to have a referee from my daughter's soccer league ref the next World Cup game when your favorite team is playing?

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Would you be willing to have a referee from my daughter's soccer league ref the next World Cup game when your favorite team is playing?

If the referee is send by the U.S. soccer asociation I have to accept it. I would have my doubts. And if he does a bad job the american soccer association will get in trouble with FIFA, but I have to accept it.
O.k. this political correctness has its limits: In the semifinals and the finals we will probably see referees from the most professional leagues of latin america and europe. But its perfectly conceivable that FIFA decides that there should be an US or a nigerian referee in the final, because of one-world-one-football-p.c. and this referee did a good job before.

[Axel Janssen]

Thomas.
I haven't seen your daughter playing soccer, but there might be some difference in the professionality of her soccer league and the finish hockey league with great teams like Turku PS.