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Af-FIRM-ative Action

 
Ugly Redneck
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For long I have been very vociferous on my opposition to the concept of Affirmative Action. I have been through a system that is in bed with this concept and I have suffered. India is in no mood to rethink its strategy on Affirmative Action for the so called "backward classes" of its population. In America however, there is a raging debate on the practise of this system. Till now, I thought I knew my stance for sure.. but right now, I am not so sure.
I was speaking to a friend of mine on the economics of Mexico and was wondering why Mexico couldnt even come up to the economic level of India. The similarities and the dissimilarities are in Mexico's favour.
1. Both nations have an indigenous population that had very active and properous civilizations in the past. The Mexicans had the Mayan civilization and the Indians had Indus Valley/Harrapa Civilizations
2. Majority of India has a strong European connection (going by the Aryan civilization that spread from the Greek belt) Mexico still has a strong European population

On the other hand-
1. Mexico has a comparatively homogenous population and culture compared to the excessively diverse nature of India. I thought this would be to the advantage of Mexico
2. Mexico has a much lower population compared to India and again I thought this would be in Mexico's advantage
3. Mexico is still ruled by people who are direct descendents of Europeans and once again this seemed to be in Mexico's favour (considering that westerners are stronger in economic concepts compared to other people)
However reality paints a much different picture. Mexico is nowhere near India's economic capabilities even though it has the world foremost and most superior economy for a next door neighbour.
Coming back to the original question of Affirmative action.. my friend gave me an answer with regard to Mexican economics with the concept of Affirmative action and I thought I'd share it with you folks.
1. In India we have Affirmative action which helps educate the underclasses constantly and thus helping to raise their awareness of social responsibilites much better. (Its another story that once these underclasses become educated and successful, they oppose affirmative action, but the reason they became successful is because of affirmative action). In mexico, the ruling class is still the White/ European minority and they are not interested in sharing their power / wealth with the large native majority who are definetly below the poverty line.
( Let me make this very clear, this post is not intended to spark some sort of racial superiority / oppression kind of discussion. I am just posting one person's observations and hoping to get some feedback. My friend did not make the above observation with the intention of marking Whites/Europeans as being oppressors, he made it because I wanted to find a answer. )
2. Because of the lack of Affirmative action in mexico, the majority of the people who are below the poverty line/uneducated.. remain that way. Their is nothing in their upbringing that entices them to educate themselves and learn to participate more in society. This however in no way influences the fact that these people still reproduce and reproduce in large numbers. Therefore over a period of time the poor people become the majority and the educated rich the minority. At some breaking point, the educated lose hope in uplifting the society and decide that its better to preserve their status compared to risk losing it all together.
3. The same poor mexican behaves very differently in American society. Earning the reputation of being a hard worker and constantly striving for a better education/lifestyle for his/her family. Thats because the American society believes in its commitments towards the lower rung of the society.
So, if affirmative action is removed in India, would it mean the downfall of its economic might? Or if affirmative action is introduced in Mexico would it signify Mexico rise in the economic world?
 
Ranch Hand
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I am somehow getting a feeling that out of the thousands of factors that contribute to the economic development of a nation, you (or your friend) are trying to tie the whole complicated concept to merely a single issue of affirmative action :roll: And the best counter-argument that i can provide to that is the example of the economic superpower, the USA. No affirmative action and yet unmatched economy for decades.
Now here is my silly blatant attempt to tie that whole concept to merely one issue- proximity to the better land. It is probably easier for Mexicans to enter the United States and settle there permanently compared to rest of the developing countries. So it is my guess that most of the people over there desire to just cross the border and make their lives easier rather than go through the pain of bringing about a revolutionary change in their own current system. The top cream-of-the-cake-smart population just heads for the north and leaves the not-so-smart ones behind. Makes sense?
Affirmative action may help the growth of some individuals in an already developed country, but i doubt if it has much to do with the growth of the whole economy of a nation that itself is still developing.
 
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The top cream-of-the-cake-smart population just heads for the north and leaves the not-so-smart ones behind. Makes sense?
No.
 
Ranch Hand
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I think it has a lot to do with the people. In India, we have Bihar state. Culture wise, it may be very different from Mexico but it is probably equally backward than all other states in almost all aspects. Why is that? Affermative action is there in Bihar also. So why doesn't it progress?
People get what they deserve If you think you deserve more, you have to put a lot of extra effort to get more. Bihar (and Mexico) will not develop untill people, ordinary people work really hard.
I think developement follows an exponential curve. It progresses extremly slowly initially and very fast after some time. So, I think, Bihar and Mexico are probably at an early stage of developement and so it seems that other states are progressing faster.
 
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Hi,
I think Pakka is making a lot of sense. Culture is the major driving force behind all the achievements. But one thing need also mention is environment. The environment fosters that culture to produce wonders.
My 2 cents,
MCao
 
Bhau Mhatre
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Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
... (and Mexico) will not develop untill people, ordinary people work really hard.


I wouldn't form a generalized opinion about the whole nation where I haven't been to or where I haven't felt the way of life myself
And that is why, my silly blatant attempt to tie Mexico's economy with northward migration hardly makes any sense as does Sriraj's attempt to tie their economy to the lack of affirmative action.
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:

I wouldn't form a generalized opinion about the whole nation where I haven't been to or where I haven't felt the way of life myself


Is it not a fact that Mexico is less developed than the US? So is the case with Bihar and other Indian states.
I don't think there is a need for any opinion here :roll:
 
Bhau Mhatre
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Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
People get what they deserve If you think you deserve more, you have to put a lot of extra effort to get more. Bihar (and Mexico) will not develop untill people, ordinary people work really hard.


I interpreted the above as "the ordinary people in Mexico (like those of Bihar) do not deserve any better because they do not put in a lot of extra efforts and do not work really hard".
My comment about generalization was based on this interpretation. Sorry about that.
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:

I interpreted the above as "the ordinary people in Mexico (like those of Bihar) do not deserve any better because they do not put in a lot of extra efforts and do not work really hard".


I am sure they work hard. In fact, ordinary people from everywhere work hard. But most of those eforts are consumed just sustain in the current state. To get out of the current state, one needs to do a lot more than that. I don't really know what more should a person who is already toiling for 14 hrs a day do.
It's like a small time hamburger seller becoming multimillionair (Dave of Wendy's). What did he do? Didn't other hamburger vendors worked hard? I am sure they did, but this guy did something extra. That's what propelleled him from one state (poor) to another (rich).
 
Ranch Hand
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Actually, I think Mexico's problem has more to do with decades of government corruption and the unwillingness to give up power more than anything. You mentioned the Mayans, but don't forget that the Mayan culture was ruled by a monarchy and monarchies maintain power by the subjugation of their peasants. Mumbai, I believe hit on an important point, those willing to do better for themselves take the big swim. This bunch is a hard-working lot and highly motivated. It has been my immense pleasure to be called amigo by many of them, I even have some godchildren of one whom I hired in the late 70s who at the time was all of 16 years old (though he told me he was 18), that makes he and I compadres. Contrast that with the remainder (majority) of Mexicans who need three supervisors to keep them from taking a nap when no one is looking, and you can see why that country cannot compete economically in the world. I believe if they can clean up their government, then those that choose el norte now will become the entrepreneurs that can make that economy flourish. My compadre no longer works for a gringo paycheck, but now has a flourishing landscape business, all without any government handout or affirmative action plan.
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Actually, I think Mexico's problem has more to do with decades of government corruption and the unwillingness to give up power more than anything. I believe if they can clean up their government, then those that choose el norte now will become the entrepreneurs that can make that economy flourish.


That's the whole problem. Who will clean up the govt? It's the people who have to do it.
 
Michael Morris
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That's the whole problem. Who will clean up the govt? It's the people who have to do it.
You're totally right about that. As I said, I think the general population of Mexico has been conditioned to be nothing more than a medieval peasantry all the way back to the glory days of the Mayas and Aztecs. They are for the most part a docile and stoic bunch. I sometimes wonder if freedom is an acquired taste rather than an innate desire. It just seems that so many around the world are not willing to fight for freedom.
 
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