Microsoft Community Versus Java Communtity

[Gregg Bolinger]

Has anyone else noticed a difference? Why is the M$ community as stuck up and self centered as the company? I have been having to do some .NET things for work and the support community has been absolutly horrible. It makes me appreciate Javaranch more and more. But it's not just Javaranch. Other Java communities like Suns forums for example are much more pleasent to deal with and find answers.
Is this common or am I just finding the wrong M$ communities for support. Not to mention everyone with a M$ solution wants you to pay for it.
Oh well...I'll be done with .NET soon enough I guess.
[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Randall Twede]

gregg,
it's not just you. i have noticed the same things. the forums site i go to for MS support is www.tek-tips.com
there are some nice helpful people there, but there are rude people there too. tek-tips was not the first site i tried when i was looking for a forum for Visual Studio and Windows support. the first one i tried one password(not enough characters) i tried another(must contain both letters and numbers) i tried another(some other reason it was no good) i finally got totally fed up with that. i have tried to find tutorials too. there are a few but not many. as you say most people want to get paid for it.
anyway, give tek-tips a try. they have some non-MS forums too, but it is mostly MS oriented.
[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: Randall Twede ]

[Michael Morris]

I am having to learn .NET :roll: and the thing that keeps getting me about anything to do with M$ is their spoiled brat attitude and desire to go totally against established standards. Why in the hell when they actually started using a dirctory structure did they choose to use a frickin' backslash for a delimiter instead of the established forward slash on UNIX systems? Why are .NET method names capitalized? C# is OK but still has a lot of the C++ hair and warts. I just really think these guys egos are a lot bigger than than their brains for the most part. I will say though, that in the early to mid 90s when we were using Solaris, Sun's tech support was just about as bad. Not that they couldn't solve your problem, but they were total assholes. The support rate was like $100/hr with a $200 minimum and these guys acted like "Why the fuck are you wasting my time with this you dumbass?" I guess Sun has had to eat a little humble pie since then.

[Gregg Bolinger]

It's not so much that I think .NET is that horrible. If someone came up to me and said "You have 1 week to get this web app done and I don't care what you use"..Well, I would choose ASP.NET. But that is besides the point. The point is the community support (and not just M$ tech support) think they are better than anyone else. I also think it has something to do with "We can't let too many people know how to do this or we won't be the only ones that know how" kind of attitude.
I am also sick of looking for tutorials online and thinking I have found one, and then all it is, is a zip file with some crappys source code. Ahh well. What am I gonna do?

[Andres Gonzalez]

I had the same problem few months ago. I don't know whether www.developerdex.com is microsoft oriented, but the forum in C# is the worst I've ever seen. I had several questions regarding c# visual components and I got very bad responses.
I decided to give up and use swing

[Thomas Paul]

I have to laugh when I read this. I never had any problems with people in the .NET community. I found them to be programmers just like us. What I found most annoying was all the Java idiots who insisted on crashing the forums and talking about how much better java was. It got so bad that Microsoft had to start deleting posts from their forums just so that the noise to signal ratio was bearable. The "java is superior" attitude seems to make some java programmers think that it is there job to be twits.
As to the backslash, go check your history. MS did not invent the \ as a separator.
try this forum: http://www.gotdotnet.com/ I always found the people there to be very helpful with my newbie questions when I first started with dotnet.

[Michael Morris]

As to the backslash, go check your history. MS did not invent the \ as a separator.
I didn't say they did, but it seems to me that at the time M$ started using a directory structure that UNIX was the dominant OS and, maybe I'm just reading something into it out of bias (admittedly a possibility), that they chose the backslash to be contrary. In all honesty, in what little bit I have learned about .NET, it appears to be a well thought out framework. I actually like the architechture and can see many possibilites with it, especially much simpler cross platform interoperability. It would seem that M$ has the foresight to realize that Windows domination will not last forever as software becomes more targeted to web services. I haven't installed VS yet, am just using the SDK compilers. I will say it was difficult finding the SDK in the first place. I had to use google. That's probably just my own ignorance of M$'s site though. Anyway it's a bitter pill to swallow feeling like I have to learn it, but hunger trumps pride everytime.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
I didn't say they did, but it seems to me that at the time M$ started using a directory structure that UNIX was the dominant OS

Sorry. Incorrect. The dominant OS was IBM OS/370. Do you mean the dominant OS on smaller computers? Unix wasn't anywhere near small computers.
Apple and CP/M were the biggies. And guess which direction the slashes went in CP/M? Unix direction slashes were used as command separators in CP/M.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I have to laugh when I read this. I never had any problems with people in the .NET community. I found them to be programmers just like us. What I found most annoying was all the Java idiots who insisted on crashing the forums and talking about how much better java was. It got so bad that Microsoft had to start deleting posts from their forums just so that the noise to signal ratio was bearable. The "java is superior" attitude seems to make some java programmers think that it is there job to be twits.
As to the backslash, go check your history. MS did not invent the \ as a separator.
try this forum: http://www.gotdotnet.com/ I always found the people there to be very helpful with my newbie questions when I first started with dotnet.

I will check out that web site. It looks pretty good. We'll see how responsive they are.
I had a feeling that a lot depends on where I was looking for support. But out of 3 sites I found, One just up and disappeared, another one keeps removing their forums and trying different software, and the other one is where I found all the "snobs".
I am actually a bit surprised we don't get more JAVA bashing from MS proponents. I never really thought about it until you mentioned it, but we really don't have that problem. Although, I don't think that speaks for the MS community as far as those people being "better" because they don't bash JAVA on our site. I think it has more to do with JAVA proponents being more passionate about their love. Well, at least I would like to believe that over JAVA fans being twits.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Thomas, could you suggest a really good ASP.NET book? I have all the basics down. What I am looking for is in depth information on all the different login methods (Forms and Windows) as well as Roles. Also would like good information on the Web.config file as nothing on-line really seems to get into all the options for the web.config file. Would also like to see some information on deployment, building user controls, and maybe even a little more of "how" things work rather than "it just does".

[Billy Tsai]

what language is MSN windows messenger written in?

[Mehdi Chaouachi]

In Chineese..!!!

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Sorry. Incorrect. The dominant OS was IBM OS/370. Do you mean the dominant OS on smaller computers? Unix wasn't anywhere near small computers.
Apple and CP/M were the biggies. And guess which direction the slashes went in CP/M? Unix direction slashes were used as command separators in CP/M.

I must graciously concede the point. DOS 2.0 introduced directory structures in 1983, long before UNIX was widespread. Where has the time gone?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Thomas, could you suggest a really good ASP.NET book?

The O'Reilly book is pretty good. I think it is written by Jesse Liberty. You may want to check it over a latte at Borders before buying to make sure it covers the material you are looking for. I don't have any ASP books (I used to borrow it from one of my co-workers) but I have a lot of ADO books!

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I am actually a bit surprised we don't get more JAVA bashing from MS proponents. I never really thought about it until you mentioned it, but we really don't have that problem.

I always found that interesting. Virtually every .NET site I was on had problems with Java programmers. I can't recall us ever having a .NET programmer bothering us here. Perhaps it shows that Java programmers are a lot more afraid of .NET than .NET programmers are of Java.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The O'Reilly book is pretty good. I think it is written by Jesse Liberty. You may want to check it over a latte at Borders before buying to make sure it covers the material you are looking for. I don't have any ASP books (I used to borrow it from one of my co-workers) but I have a lot of ADO books!

Thanks Tom. I have a really good ADO.NET.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Thanks Tom. I have a really good ADO.NET.

I have that same book. I found it exactly what I needed when I was trying to learn using disconnected classes.

[Billy Tsai]

what computer programming languages are used to write ICQ and MSN windows Messenger?

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
what computer programming languages are used to write ICQ and MSN windows Messenger?

Billy, you sound like a broken record. Probably C++. You might consider posting this as it's own question in the General Computing Forum as your question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. You'll probably get a better response there from more people.

[Gregg Bolinger]

I have also notived here lately that when trying to find additional components, like report generation, chart generation, etc, people/companies what big $$ to use them plus the whole M$ liscensing fiasco. Why can't there be a .NETFreeReport?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I have also notived here lately that when trying to find additional components, like report generation, chart generation, etc, people/companies what big $$ to use them plus the whole M$ liscensing fiasco. Why can't there be a .NETFreeReport?

Do you think there is something wrong with programmers being paid for their work? Maybe I should have a talk with your boss.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Do you think there is something wrong with programmers being paid for their work? Maybe I should have a talk with your boss.

I'll remember that next time someone asks me for a solution to a problem here on Javaranch.
This could be a thread all on it's own regarding paying for API's. I have no problem paying for software in terms of a complete application/solution. But when someone says "I have a component for developing reports with C#. Only $750 per seat!!" That is where I have a problem. I am over exagerating on the price tag there, but you get the idea.
[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Frank Silbermann]

On the one hand, it would be a tragedy if .NET were to succeed so well that our credentials as Java programmers were devalued (assuming that the job market will ever re-value them).
On the other hand, distributed programming architectural issues are the same in any language, and C# is so similar to Java that our Java knowledge transfers quite well to the .NET world. So it would be a wonderful thing if all those VB jobs were to be replaced by C#/.NET jobs. But is that likely, or is the VB world more apt to move towards VB.NET?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
But when someone says "I have a component for developing reports with C#. Only $750 per seat!!" That is where I have a problem. I am over exagerating on the price tag there, but you get the idea.

You mean Crystal Reports? Crystal Reports Advanced cost almost $2,000. Having used it to do web based report generation I would say that it is worth every penny.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
But is that likely, or is the VB world more apt to move towards VB.NET?

I think MS would prefer everyone to move to C#. As it turns out, the learning curve to go from VB6 to C# is almost the same as going from VB6 to VB.NET. So far, there has not been a mass move from VB6 to anything. The VB community seems to like things just the way they are.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
You mean Crystal Reports? Crystal Reports Advanced cost almost $2,000. Having used it to do web based report generation I would say that it is worth every penny.

I am not talking about Crystal Reports. Crystal Reports is not just an API. It is more of a complete solution. I will see if I can drudge up something for an example.

[David Overman]

Sorry. Incorrect. The dominant OS was IBM OS/370. Do you mean the dominant OS on smaller computers? Unix wasn't anywhere near small computers.
Apple and CP/M were the biggies. And guess which direction the slashes went in CP/M? Unix direction slashes were used as command separators in CP/M.
On smaller computers during 8080 and Z-80 days; you had the Radio Shack TRS-80, Apple II, and a handful of companies using the S-100 bus; an interchangable card based bus with 100 pins. When the processor was obsolete, you simply replaced the card in one of the S-100 slots. The original idea was non-obsolescence. Berkeley Unix System 5 ran on Cromemco; a company founded by two professors and named after Crothers Memorial Hall. With a Z-80 chip(8086), a 10 megabyte hard drive ($10,000.00), and 64K of RAM per per S-100 slot (average system cost =$25-30k) you could network 256 computers together.
This was in the era that IBM president stated that " no one would ever need a computer in the home." There was a sort of open source community brewing at the time. C/PM was migrating to M/PM (multi-user). Microsoft Basic was the primary programming language for micros. It was either that or assembly. Of course C was available with Unix.
With the introduction of the IBM PC; S-100 died along with the idea of full blown unix on a micro. I have always felt that the original DOS was a major backstep in the progression of micros. The user community CP/M was improving; and the Berkely movement of rewriting Bell Labs Unix paved the way for early micros. However; DOS was simple. And; the original marketing of the PC swamped the competition. Nearly every business had an IBM typewiter; and; IBM was the name for computers. No one could blame a CEO for choosing IBM when it came to computers.
The Unix movement on micros evolved into XENIX on the PC and AIX on Apple. Unix did not become popular on micros until the Internet revolution, when Berkely unix became FreeBSD and Linux was invented. However; IBM, DEC and Sun minicomputers all used different flavors of Unix. With the advent of GUI's on Macintosh and then Windows, it was clear that the majority of users did not really care for all those command line prompts on a personal computer.
Cromemco sold out to Dynatech, who marketed the unix based micros to the US Air Force for the superior security of unix boxes. The two professors had borrowed no money. It is purported that Cromemco was worth nearly 1/2 billion dollars when sold.
[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: David Overman ]
[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: David Overman ]
[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: David Overman ]

[Thomas Paul]

The history of CP/M and DOS is rather interesting. IBM originally wanted to put CP/M on their PCs but they couldn't get the president of Digital Research to take them seriously. They were getting desperate for an OS and they asked Bill Gates for some help. Gates had originally sent IBM to DR. Gates bought an OS and licensed it to IBM. The first IBM PCs came with your choice of CP/M or DOS as DR finally signed a deal with IBM at the last minute. The CP/M version was $200 more than the DOS version because DR refused to give IBM a break on the price. Guess which one sold more. If Digital Research hadn't had their heads up their butts, CP/M could have become the dominant OS on PCs.

[Jeroen Wenting]

and noone would likely have heard from Microsoft again...
Windows was created when Microsoft and IBM cooperation crashed during the development of OS/2 which was meant to replace DOS (there's a lot of Microsoft code inside OS/2, even the compilers are Microsoft C).
Microsoft decided to create an OS that would be generic, not tied to IBM hardware (as OS/2 was doing, if anyone has tried using it on a computer with non-IBM hardware you know the problems).
That was their major breakthrough which brought enough income to finance the creation of the largest cashcow of them all: MS Office, and the marketing of it at an extremely competitive price at a moment when customers were getting ever more frustrated with WordPerfect and Lotus.
In the end, the combination of a quite decent operating system combined with an excellent office productivity suite bought Microsoft the market share they enjoy today.

[San Su]

Gregg,
Have you tried "www.asp.net" website? I think it is a well maintained website for ASP.NET and their forum is very active.
Sankar S.