Hindus involved in Spain terrorism??

[Paul McKenna]

Spain announces terrorists
The above newslink says two people of "Hindu origin" were arrested but I checked WSJ.com and it said two Spainiards of "Indian origin" were arrested.
I am not sure which one is accurate but eitherway I offer extended apologies to all Spainiards on behalf of my countrymen who appear to be involved in this unfortunate incident. I would have no problem if these people were executed and in public to make an example of them.

[Paul McKenna]

Two Spaniards of Indian origin also were called for questioning but are not expected to be arrested, Mr. Acebes said.

Update - this is what I found on WSJ.com.. I pray that these two are not involved in the incident.

[Rosie Vogel]

I read on several sites that three Morrocans and two Indians were arrested. Only on one site (it's in Dutch) it says that the two Indians are Hindus. But surely it's extremely unlikely, that Hindus and Muslims would join hands to plot a terrorist attack together?

[Jim Yingst]

Compare:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040313/D819LVD82.html
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040313/D819M7GO1.html
Looks to me like the second link is an updated version of the first (note the filing times). The first version includes the line

The other two are Spaniards of "Hindu" origin, minister Angel Acebes said.

This info does not appear in the later version. And note the quatation marks in the first version, specifically around "Hindu" - to me that hints that the reporter felt the info might be questionable, and it was important to indicate that the "Hindu" part came from only one source, Acebes, and had not been corroborated from other sources. My guess is that by the time the second version of the story was filed, the reporter felt that the Acebes quote was most likely an error, and not worth repeating until more solid info was avaailable.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Remember that Pakistani people can look very much like Indians (especially to untrained eyes) and there's lots of Muslims in Pakistan (and of course some in India as well).
Calling all people from that region Hindus is like calling all people from the ME Arabs... It's something the press does because they don't know better.

[Jim Yingst]

Blame the press if you like, but in this case the AP reporter was clear in identifying the source of info. If a mistake was made confusing Indian with Hindu, it was most likely Acebes who comitted the error.
I don't think that there's any indication so far that Pakistanis are involved. News reports have been pretty consistent in referring to the detainees as Morroccans and Indians, not Pakistanis.

[Paul McKenna]

Update - the names of the two Indians have been released -

The two Indians were identified as Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar.

From WSJ.com, the names are definetly those of Hindus but we will have to wait and see what exactly these people are charged with.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Spain announces terrorists
I am not sure which one is accurate but eitherway I offer extended apologies to all Spainiards on behalf of my countrymen who appear to be involved in this unfortunate incident.

Seem to recall in another thread that you cut off all ties with your country of origin ?

[Arjun Shastry]

From the thread title its clear that Paul desperately wants those Indians(and Hindus) to be involved in blast so that we can get many threads like "Hinduism and terrorism","Does Bhagwatgita teach terror?" Fantastic thing would be those Indians on working Visa in Spain. .
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Capablanca Kepler ]
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Capablanca Kepler ]

[Don Stadler]

Perhaps Al-Quida outsourced the work?

[Angela Poynton]

Don and Capablanca, that's not funny! Please can we not start something which will only lead to the deletion of this thread, you know the rules.
What I want to know is why the Religion or indeed the country of origin of those who committed this heinous act is relevent.
It is showing a interest in such irrelevent facts that begets religous and racial hatred ignorantly poported to be in response to this kind of attack.
Individuals, for their own reasons did this.
It isn't the work of any particular faith or nation.
They may be part of a group which "claims" to be allied to a particular faith or nation but anyone with any intelligence will I hope understand the falseness of that claim. Don't even being to associate blame on a Religion or even a country, keep it where it belongs, with the individuals who were truly responsible.

[Varun Khanna]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
............

So you found Cap funny? I didn't ...
Infact the subject of this thread seems to be more funny ...

What I want to know is why the Religion or indeed the country of origin of those who committed this heinous act is relevent.

Then why "Hindus involved in Spain terrorism", why not "Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar involved in Spain terrorism"?

[Pradeep bhatt]

Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar involved in Spain terrorism

Varun,
As per cnn it is Suresh Komar and not Suresh Kumar.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:

What I want to know is why the Religion or indeed the country of origin of those who committed this heinous act is relevent.
It is showing a interest in such irrelevent facts that begets religous and racial hatred ignorantly poported to be in response to this kind of attack.
Individuals, for their own reasons did this.
It isn't the work of any particular faith or nation.
They may be part of a group which "claims" to be allied to a particular faith or nation but anyone with any intelligence will I hope understand the falseness of that claim. Don't even being to associate blame on a Religion or even a country, keep it where it belongs, with the individuals who were truly responsible.

Exactly!!!
Couldn't agree more!
Let's keep this to those individuals and let's not generalize.
- Manish

[Pradeep bhatt]

http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13429588

[Varun Khanna]

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

Varun,
As per cnn it is Suresh Komar and not Suresh Kumar.

Oh koooool.
I always knew Suresh Kumar can't do things like this
Thanks Pradeep :roll:

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Seem to recall in another thread that you cut off all ties with your country of origin ?

Incase you are talking about the thread where I talked about dual citizenship, I must also tell you that I am still a citizen of India (only!)

Cap: From the thread title its clear that Paul desperately wants those Indians(and Hindus) to be involved in blast so that we can get many threads like "Hinduism and terrorism","Does Bhagwatgita teach terror?"

I dont find the above funny.. and NO! I dont want to start any thread with that that title. I am a Hindu myself so I am not proud of any such act committed by fellow Hindus.

Angela: What I want to know is why the Religion or indeed the country of origin of those who committed this heinous act is relevent.

First of all, the reason the thread was titled the way it was is because the first article to provide this information had the phrase "hindu origin". Check the link in the first post in this thread. And secondly, to think that today's terrorism has nothing to do with religion is PC nonsense, IMHO.

Manish: Let's keep this to those individuals and let's not generalize.

I'm actually surprised that people want to keep the acts to the individuals once they realize that someone from their religion is involved. I am NOT saying that all Hindus are terrorists but to me it just seems so...
I have always stated that I believe Islam is not conducive to democracy and when I see / read about a fellow Hindu associated with such an act I feel ashamed but not ashamed enough to not apologize on behalf of my religion / people.
Didnt many of us complain why muslims are not forthcoming / did not apologize after the 9/11 attacks.. its so ironic to see many of us do the same when our community is involved!!! :sigh: :roll:
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

[Varun Khanna]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I'm actually surprised that people want to keep the acts to the individuals once they realize that someone from their religion is involved.

It surprises you? Isn't that normal !!!
In the mentioned text you can replace the word "religion" with "family" , "community" , "club", "team" ........
and still it won't surprise me.
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Varun Khanna ]

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Varun Khanna:
It surprises you? Isn't that normal !!!
In the mentioned text you can replace the word "religion" with "family" , "community" , "club", "team" ........
and still it won't surprise me.

If someone from my family / community / club committed such a heinous act then I would openly disown this person.. but obviously I cannot disown the two who "appear" to be involved in this act..
Anyway, we (me included) are all speculating the charges against these two men. They could be indicted for something as simple as selling the terrorists with the cell phones used for detonation... we dont know yet. Lets wait for more news.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I'm actually surprised that people want to keep the acts to the individuals once they realize that someone from their religion is involved. I am NOT saying that all Hindus are terrorists but to me it just seems so...
I have always stated that I believe Islam is not conducive to democracy and when I see / read about a fellow Hindu associated with such an act I feel ashamed but not ashamed enough to not apologize on behalf of my religion / people.
Didnt many of us complain why muslims are not forthcoming / did not apologize after the 9/11 attacks.. its so ironic to see many of us do the same when our community is involved!!! :sigh: :roll:
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

My point is that anyone with any intelligence will know that the Hindu religion does not endorse terrorism, so therefore any association between an terrorist and the Hindu faith is irrelevent.
Anyone who complained that Muslims didn't apologise for the 9/11 attacks should also consider that the link between the Islamic faith that those attack was purely one made by those who carried out the attcks, they used the cover of their Religion. Anyone who does just a little bit of research would know that anyone following the faith purely and without any other agenda could never carry out such an attack, the religion of the attckers was irrelevent.
They were just people with an agenda!
It's honourable that you apologise on behalf of your faith/countrymen, but it's unneccesary! Do you understand what I'm saying?
I was baptised Catholic, the IRA are a Terrorist group made up of Catholic people that has attacked many times in Ireland and England, I do not consider myself associated with those people because we belong to the same religion. I know that what they do goes against the Catholic faith, and therefore their poported faith has nothing to do with their actions.

[Devesh H Rao]

For all the smileys floating around this post please take some time to think about the lives that were lost for no fault of theirs.
There is nothing here to be happy about or play a blame game about who is involved or not.
Just the reason that it happened in a place far away from where we are at the moment dosen't take away the importance of the fact.
I really dont know if any people in here have seen carnage from near but i can speak from personal experience from being a mute spectator to the similar incident of terrorism in which a blast went off in a subarban train in mumbai about how it feels
so people please have a look in the mirror and ask yourself do you like what you are seeing ?

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:

Anyone who complained that Muslims didn't apologise for the 9/11 attacks should also consider that the link between the Islamic faith that those attack was purely one made by those who carried out the attcks, they used the cover of their Religion. Anyone who does just a little bit of research would know that anyone following the faith purely and without any other agenda could never carry out such an attack, the religion of the attckers was irrelevent.
They were just people with an agenda!
It's honourable that you apologise on behalf of your faith/countrymen, but it's unneccesary! Do you understand what I'm saying?
I was baptised Catholic, the IRA are a Terrorist group made up of Catholic people that has attacked many times in Ireland and England, I do not consider myself associated with those people because we belong to the same religion. I know that what they do goes against the Catholic faith, and therefore their poported faith has nothing to do with their actions.

The difference is that there are many muslim religous leaders who do espouse violence.

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
[QBI offer extended apologies to all Spainiards on behalf of my countrymen who appear to be involved in this unfortunate incident. I would have no problem if these people were executed and in public to make an example of them.[/QB]

I am sorry, I cannot and will not apologize on behalf of me, my religion (hindu) or for my country or for the 2 people of Indian origin that were arrested for the Spainish train tragedy. Reason I refuse to apologize is because I will not accept the culpability of some Indians (whether hindu, muslim, christian, farsi, jew, sikh, buddhist, jain or any other faith) who may have blown up the trains. The 2 who did it were responsible, not me, not my faith, not India, not the Indian govt, not the Indian people.
I know post 9-11 reaction worldwide was one of puzzlement as to why the muslim leaders didn't condemn the 9/11/01 attacks on WTC. That was a legitimate puzzlement and demand because the attackers claimed legitimacy to their heinous act on their faith, on their religion, on Islam. Now, if the 2 Indians of hindu faith that have been indicted for blowing up the trains in Spain try to link their act to their hindu religion, then I'll defend hindu religion and vociferously demand that the hindu leaders around the world also condemn this terrorist act. Otherwise, it is 2 insane people who happened to be hindus.
When the Oklahoma federal building was bombed and it was determined that Mcveigh was responsible for that, did anyone demand that the christian leaders condemn this act? There was no need for that. Everyone knew that the christian faith does not condone this and Mcveigh didn't try to seek legitimacy to his terrorist act in Bible.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
I am sorry, I cannot and will not apologize on behalf of me, my religion (hindu) or for my country or for the 2 people of Indian origin that were arrested for the Spainish train tragedy.

It has been confirmed that the two suspects are actually Indian citizens holding Indian passports. Two other Spaniards of Indian origin were picked up for questioning but were not arrested.

Reason I refuse to apologize is because I will not accept the culpability of some Indians (whether hindu, muslim, christian, farsi, jew, sikh, buddhist, jain or any other faith) who may have blown up the trains. The 2 who did it were responsible, not me, not my faith, not India, not the Indian govt, not the Indian people.

I am reminded of an old adage - "Silence is often the sign of approval!"

Otherwise, it is 2 insane people who happened to be hindus.

Amen! But others need to know that other Indians/Hindus feel that way.. get what I mean...

When the Oklahoma federal building was bombed and it was determined that Mcveigh was responsible for that, did anyone demand that the christian leaders condemn this act? There was no need for that. Everyone knew that the christian faith does not condone this and Mcveigh didn't try to seek legitimacy to his terrorist act in Bible.[/QB]

I may be mistaken here but didnt Tim McVeigh commit the act under a white supremacist pretext, therefore what sense would it make for christian leaders to apologize for his acts? Secondly, Tim McVeigh conducted his crime on his own people and his own soil.. so there is a world of difference between the two acts. I wouldnt apologize if Vinay and Suresh blew up some train in India.. cos people in India know the entire context.
I am very sure that the two, if found guilty, did not commit the act under the pretext of Hinduism but definetly for some other reasons such as money etc. But try telling that to Spaniards..
Islam also does not preach violence per se, but there sure are a lot of terrorists preaching Islam..

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
but there sure are a lot of terrorists preaching Islam..

It cant be generalized at all.
So what do you say about RSS, Who distributed Trishul (Trident)?? I think they were preaching non-violence/terrorism by the means of distributing Trident.
I will say there are terrorist who are Muslims. The same way there are terrorist who are Hindus or who are Christians or may belong to any religion.
Today media by default think of terrorism means Islam. And good that they are Hindu, at least now media will think twice to blame any one religion.
If I say none of the religion preach hatred, I am sure lot of people will come up with examples about Kafir.
But when I consider the time of birth of Islam, I dont see anything wrong in Kafir funda (true that today it cant be applied) because at that time other religious preachers were making people to change the religion at the point of swords.
AW Silence is also gold. Let the action speak for itself.
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I am reminded of an old adage - "Silence is often the sign of approval!"

I didn't say that I don't condemn the blowing up of the trains. So, what am I silently approving, then?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Amen! But others need to know that other Indians/Hindus feel that way.. get what I mean...

No, I don't get what you mean. There has not been a preponderance of terrorist acts committed by hindus the world over. So, if 2 people commit terrorist acts & they happen to be hindus, that doesn't tell me anything regarding hindus in general. If this one act of terrorism tells the rest of the world that hindus in general are terrorists or that they condone terrorism, then that is ignorance. And that ignorance cannot be addressed on this forum since most of the ranchers know enough about India & hindus to draw any link between this terrorist act and hinduism.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I may be mistaken here but didnt Tim McVeigh commit the act under a white supremacist pretext, therefore what sense would it make for christian leaders to apologize for his acts?

No, you are not mistaken, and your point is well taken.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Secondly, Tim McVeigh conducted his crime on his own people and his own soil.. so there is a world of difference between the two acts. I wouldnt apologize if Vinay and Suresh blew up some train in India.. cos people in India know the entire context.

Ok, how about some acts of terrorism after 9/11/01 by some Americans towards brown skinned folks in US? That, to me, is also terrorism because it struck terror in the hearts of many brown skinned folks here in US. Does anyone need to apologize for that? No, not as far as I'm concerned. That is, again, individual ignorance. My point is : any correlation between a person's terrorist actions and his/her faith is wrong unless there is a preponderance of other evidence that could point to such a link; especially, if the religious clerics/leaders of his/her faith have been known to have espoused/encouraged violence.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I am very sure that the two, if found guilty, did not commit the act under the pretext of Hinduism but definetly for some other reasons such as money etc. But try telling that to Spaniards..

My problem is actually with the Spanish minister who declared that 2 Indians of hindu origin were arrested. Why did he have to mention "hindu origin"? If 2 Britishers & 2 Americans had been arrested, would he have said 2 Britishers/Americans of Christian origin (if they were christians)? And would anyone have wanted other Brits/Americans/Christians to apologize for the actions of the 2 involved?

[Axel Janssen]

... but its new issue that people who are following a yet unknown interpretation of hinduism are teaming up with Al Quaeda.
Its like a coalition of radical elements who think appropriate to spread terror in "dominating" "western" "culture". I put apostrophes, because I don't know if we can call if its western culture, if fastest growing nations in world market are asian...

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
I didn't say that I don't condemn the blowing up of the trains. So, what am I silently approving, then?

The silence is in reference to apology or to condemn the act ??

[Manish Hatwalne]

I'll speak for myself.
I don't think Muslims should apologize for 9/11. I have no problems apologizing even when it comes to my religion, (Though I don't care for it much), but I don't think this incident demand one. Did they ever say that it had anything to do with Hinuism?
The time when I did feel like apologizing was when 6 Dec Ayodhya thing happened.
- Manish

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
The time when I did feel like apologizing was when 6 Dec Ayodhya thing happened.
- Manish

I could not go out that day, becuase of shame.

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
I'll speak for myself.
The time when I did feel like apologizing was when 6 Dec Ayodhya thing happened.
- Manish

And when Graham Staines was horrible murdered. That warranted an apology from every sensible hindu around the world because it was done in the name of hinduism and that tainted every hindu's life.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

And when Graham Staines was horrible murdered. That warranted an apology from every sensible hindu around the world because it was done in the name of hinduism and that tainted every hindu's life.

Yes, definitely!
In fact, this was even more serious coz person involved was a living human being. Thats' as cruel, as insensible as disgusting as gets!!!
- Manish

[Kishore Dandu]

Many Indians are involved in selling calling cards for international calling.
It is quite possible that these 2 Indians are arrested just because the calling card they sold is found on the bomb site along with explosives.
That is very possible and more than 50% may be the case.
Kishore.

[Joe Pluta]

I don't think Muslims should apologize for 9/11.
I've never asked Muslims to apologize for 9/11.
What I do think is that, since these terrorist activities are carried out in the name of Islam, that all civilized Muslims should as one denounce these atrocities. Followers of Islam the world over should unite and specifically state that they do not believe these to be acts consistent with Islam, that the perpetrators are not following the laws of Islam, and that the terrorists should be jailed and punished for their crimes.
The same should happen for every act of terrorism. If the entire world turned their backs on these terrorists, if they were no longer offered food and shelter, if they knew that their own families would turn them in to authorities, then all but the most deranged, the most unbalanced, would continue these attacks.
Civilization occurs when people agree on rules of behavior, and when those who break those rules of behavior are held accountable. How many of you know of someone who knows someone who thinks America "deserved" the activities of 9/11? It is those people - the ones who support terrorism, even by saying "they deserved it" - who are the deadliest terrorists of all, because they create a world where terrorism survives.
I have often talked about what I would do to save my child, or the lengths I would go to protect my family. But if I found that a family member were plotting to blow up a trainload of people, I would turn him in to the authorities. As would any American I know. This is how civilized society begins: by not allowing uncivilized acts by any of its members.
Joe

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
My problem is actually with the Spanish minister who declared that 2 Indians of hindu origin were arrested. Why did he have to mention "hindu origin"? If 2 Britishers & 2 Americans had been arrested, would he have said 2 Britishers/Americans of Christian origin (if they were christians)? And would anyone have wanted other Brits/Americans/Christians to apologize for the actions of the 2 involved?

I think it is significant that they were Hindus because of the suggestion that this incident is tied to Al Queda. It is newsworthy and the minister was right to mention it.

[Kishore Dandu]

Hello everybody,
No one is guilty until proven in the court of law.
I can remember Oklahoma incident and the US police arrested couple of people of middle eastern origin out of suspicion and rest is history.
So, let us wait until some concrete proof emerges.
Kishore
[ March 15, 2004: Message edited by: Kishore Dandu ]

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I think it is significant that they were Hindus because of the suggestion that this incident is tied to Al Queda. It is newsworthy and the minister was right to mention it.

I am not sure I quite follow this. Are you suggesting that by mentioning the they were hindus meant that this could not have been AQ? Or are you suggesting that now AQ has hindu members in it?
Would it have been newsworthy if those 2 had been of any religion other than Islam & Hindu?
From most of the reporting that I've seen/heard/read it does appear to have been AQ and that the erstwhile Spanish govt. tried to present it as ETA just so they would have a better showing in the elections. If this were the case, then the minister was not right to mention it.

[Kishore Dandu]

Following kind of repeats what I was suspecting about the Indians level of involvement in the incident.
This is coming from Deccan Chronicle, India.

"
Indians held in Spain sold SIMs to terrorists


New Delhi, March 14: The Spanish authorities are questioning the two Indian nationals, who were arrested on Sunday in connection with the blasts in Madrid train stations.
The authorities are probing to find out the Indians� alleged involvement in selling mobile phone cards, following the recovery of a cell phone and pre-paid card from an explosives-packed gym bag in one of the trains rocked by explosions in Madrid.
While investigations are still underway, the Indians, Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar, are suspected to be illegal immigrants. The two were picked up from a downtown suburb, Lava Pias outside Madrid, noted more for the large presence of illegal immigrants.
�We would like to express our solidarity with the investigations. The Government of India and the Indian diaspora in Spain which is a law-abiding and prosperous community, disapproves of illegal immigration and underlines the importance of all Indians in Spain respecting the law of the land,� External Affairs Ministry spokesman told reporters here on Monday.
Spanish authorities on Sunday had announced the arrest of three Moroccans and two Indians in connection with Thursday�s bombings in four trains that left 200 people dead and 1,500 injured.
The MEA spokesman said that the Indian Embassy was in touch with Spanish authorities and once the identity of the nationalities of the two were established, it would seek consular access with them.
According to sources, the two arrested illegal immigrants had approached the Indian Embassy recently for a duplicate passport pleading that they had lost their original documents.
The sources said they were allegedly involved in supplying mobile phones in the sub-urban market. During this process, it is understood that the terrorist involved in the series of blasts in Madrid also purchased mobile phones from the duo. The sources said India would investigate the matter only after their identity was established."

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
I am not sure I quite follow this. Are you suggesting that by mentioning the they were hindus meant that this could not have been AQ? Or are you suggesting that now AQ has hindu members in it?

I think Thomas meant that the minister had a reason to mention the religion simply because it would have helped him / his party in the forthcoming elections. A Hindu would have helped cast a shadow on the Al Qaeda theories and thus might have helped the conservative party.. you can argue that it was not right on part of the minister but he's got an election to win!

Would it have been newsworthy if those 2 had been of any religion other than Islam & Hindu?

Absolutely! If it had been the version of Christianity followed by Basque separatists it would have helped the ruling conservative party immensely. I think it is very naive to think that the current war on terrorism is in no way linked to religion.. it is a clash of civilizations and it is a clash between militiant Islamists and people of other religions.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
And when Graham Staines was horrible murdered. That warranted an apology from every sensible hindu around the world because it was done in the name of hinduism and that tainted every hindu's life.

The apology has already been provided on behalf of all Hindus when the Indian government sentenced his killer to death. And note that there was not one person protesting his sentence..