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GB vs the USA

 
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Hi Jayesh !

That's interesting!! So, if unemployment rates start increasing, you would prefer that immigrants stay in the country while citizens are laid off??

Please be realistic, when properly selected skilled workers are let in they increase prosperity and reduce unemployment risk, but as employment cycles vary all the time this may happen anyway. This is a sensible risk and on the long term when good skilled immigrants are selected it always works, as sure as stock exchange always grows on long term despite some low turns.
Suppose you say to potential immigrants "you are let in as long as market is good, but after some mounths when things are on a low your will be sent back home", who would come ? Select the valuable immigrants and you'll reduce the occurences of high unemployment rates on the long term, that's all.

Best regards.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Jayesh !

And as we all know, JDO experts are also experts on immigration matters
:roll: Maybe I should have consulted a JDO expert when I was applying for my GC


No, you got me he is no immigration expert, but he was sure of his opinion which he gave without hesitation, and it confirmed what I was expected. I had already contacted a lawyer specialised about immigration who, without giving the same advice , confirmed H1B had become impossible to use in practice and only L visa was really realistic right now, and he didn't even attempt to suggest me any king of GC possibility for there was none, so he looked totally credible to me. So I took these opinion for granted as all seems to point to the same trend.

However, I heard that because of legal practical impossibility for any US company to hire any alien for 5 years to come even in desperate need had made INS much more sensible than before for GC attribution.

So please Jayesh could you comment the circumstances which allowed you to get directly a GC, if I this is really your case as I understood it ? For I'm very interested too, fed up with France for personnal reasons, and would rather attempt a new career in USA.

Best regards, TIA.
 
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Joe King:

I don't hate the US, and I'm not anti-American... but I do disagree with their choice of government .

Most Europeans are very conscious of the fact that the US doesn't care what they think, but to be honest the feeling is probably not mutual.


I wonder if perhaps "caring what they think" and "thinking it's okay to tell them what to do" go hand in hand. Most Americans probably think it's more polite not to care what Europeans think and not to worry about what governments they have than to worry a lot about what they think and tell them what kind of government they should or shouldn't have. Would you really prefer to have Americans saying things like, "you really ought to get rid of that Queen and put a real King in charge ... and while you're at it, write down your constitution!"

I'd suggest that anyone considering immigrating to the U.S. might want to consider whether they can adjust to a culture where they'll have to live with and get along with a lot of people with very different values from their own. There's just too much diversity in America for everyone to agree on a single set of values.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

For example, there was a brand of ice cream sold on the streets in Germany called Neiger-Ice (spelling?). The symbol for this brand of ice cream was a nearly naked African pygmy warrior, ring through the nose, spear in hand, done up in black-face.


Wow, that is pretty shocking. In the UK there has been a large effort to remove any terms like that which could be seen as non-Politically Correct. There's no way an ice cream could be called something like that. I'm quite surprised that the Germans allowed it.


What about France? There's quite a rash of anti-semitism going on over there, isn't there? And they have recently passed laws which certainly may be viewed as anti-Muslim. Whether or not the bombing of a Muslim school in the Netherlands was an isolated incident remains to be seen.


Well, firstly the laws were against conspicuous religious symbols, so all religions were effected, not just Islam. Other banned things include large Christian crosses for example. While there are admittedly some religious problems, these aren't racist - last time I checked Islam was a religion, not a race. Big problem - yes, but racism - no.


Commonly referring to Pakistanis as Pakis... I remember after an apparently important football game between England and Cameroon, which I believe Cameroon won, the English coach saying something along the lines that "those monkeys need to go back to their trees" in reference to the team from Cameroon. While I was shocked, this inconceivably seemed to cause barely any ripples in the British press.


Both of these terms would be totally unacceptable today in the UK. I'm not sure how long ago you heard them, but its hard to imagine them being said often (or at all on telly) any more.


And one of the most accepted and out in the open forms of racism rampant throughout Europe - anti-Americanism.


There is quite a bit of opposition to American policy, but its not opposition to Americans in general. A while back I saw many Americans calling the French things like "Cheese munching surrender monkeys". Now this is obviously only the view of a small ignorant minority - I doubt that most Americans are racist against the French, just as I doubt that most Europeans are racist against the Americans. Unfortunately its the small stupid minority that sometimes get heard.


The topic seems to be wandering though and I'm not sure what this has to do with Jobs. I would have preferred to refute you via email, but you have chosen not associate an email with your JavaRanch account.
[ November 09, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


Indeed it is wondering a bit off. Yeah, email may have been a better medium for debate, but I'm a bit paranoid about having my email address coming up on public forums after previous bad spam experiences
 
Joe King
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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:

Well, Europeans are certainly doing a terrible job communicating their disagreements. It's hard to take seriously criticism coming from people who sound as if they're interpreting events through a Marxist framework.


Yes, transatlantic communication has not been at its best recently. While Europeans have generally behaved a bit stroppily, so has the US. Both are equally to blame for this break down of communication.
As for "Marxist framework"... what on earth is that all about? Just because Europe isn't as capitalist as the US doesn't make it Marxist.... but that's a whole other thread.


It's not just our foreign policy that Europeans hate about us. They hate us because we


Lets not get too carried away here. Europe and the US are still friends. After 11/9/01 all the European members of NATO voted for the first time to activate the clause in the alliance that said that they considered the attack to be against Europe as well as the US. We still trade huge amounts with each other, and tourists flock back and forth across the Atlantic. While Europeans may disagree with the US about some policy issues, its more like a disagreement between friends - we may bicker and squabble, but at the end of the day we're still friends. Hate is a much stronger term- hate is what the suicide bombers and terrorists feel, mild disagreement is more what Europeans feel.


execute some of our crueler murderers (but Europeans find roon it in their heart to understand and forgive Palestinians who feel free to assassinate anyone they disagree with). They hate us because we proudly own and use firearms for legal and righteous non-sporting purposes -- that we value the lives and freedom of crime victims over the lives of muggers, rapists and burglars. They hate us because our culture is vulgar (which literally means "common") -- not recognizing that this is the price one pays for having a (comparatively) classless society. They sneer at Americans for attending church regularly. They hate us for equating right and left-wing radicalism, national socialism with international socialism in our domestic politics.


We could debate back and forth about these issues all day (indeed I'd love to, these debates are good fun), but I feel that if this thread gets a bit too political (or more to the point, away from jobs) then it could get deleted, so perhaps its best not to.
 
Joe King
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Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Would you really prefer to have Americans saying things like, "you really ought to get rid of that Queen and put a real King in charge ... and while you're at it, write down your constitution!"



Perhaps you should! We could probably do with a (single document) constitution
 
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An interesting point I think the OP was trying to make was about (before everyone got carried away) the relative job markets in the UK and the US.

A lot of people bandied around figures to do with salaries in the UK and the US. Here's my take on it....wherever you live, you're screwed. Based on where I've lived:

London: Salary for a mid-range developer (5 years) 40-50K GBP. Cost of (2 bedroom) apartment 250K (and falling, perhaps).

California: Salary, 70-90K USD. Cost of apartment $400K.

Wherever you live, I think the cost of living is expensive, and the reason is that these are places that people want to live - places with culture and opportunities. I know that I could get a 2000sq house in Iowa for $100K, or a 3 bedroom house in Hull for 60K, but wouldn't want to live those places.

As for opinions on gun ownership, foreign policy and who's country is 'best', these are all very subjective.

Abhi, don't buy a car. In london, you don't have to, in the USA you usually do. If you made huge money in India, why did you leave? If you can only get a small salary here, it's probably not worth staying. At least you'd get lots of sun in India

Frank, Europeans don't hate Americans, just Bush.
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:
That's interesting!! So, if unemployment rates start increasing, you would prefer that immigrants stay in the country while citizens are laid off??



I think you miss the point. People who are permanent immigrants are Americans as far as most of us are concerned whether they are citizens or not. They share our needs, wants, and desires for our nation. If your barn is on fire, do you want to be with the person who grabs his horse and rides out of town or the person who grabs a bucket and helps you put the fire out?
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


I think you miss the point. People who are permanent immigrants are Americans as far as most of us are concerned whether they are citizens or not. They share our needs, wants, and desires for our nation. If your barn is on fire, do you want to be with the person who grabs his horse and rides out of town or the person who grabs a bucket and helps you put the fire out?



Sorry, I didnt mean immigrants, I meant alien workers. My understand of the H1B visa is that it's there so that employers can import labor from outside the country on a temporary basis. So, if there is a shortage of a certain skill, employers are allowed to employ foriegners by sponsoring their H1 visa. Once the shortage reduces either through a) people on H1 becoming naturalized citizens, b) students in US learning the neccessary skills or c) reduction of demand of that skill set, the INS reduces the number of H1 visas. If the H1 visa is abolished, and another process is in place that makes it more difficult for employers to hire foriegn workers, then employers wont have any choice other than outsourcing. So, on one hand you have alien workers, and on the other hand, you have outsourcing. Which do you prefer?

Besides, I dont see how your analogy of burning barn is applicable!! When the economy is going down, and people are being laid off, you need less workers in the country, not more. How exactly are alien workers going to "grab a bucket and help you put the fire out?" Keeping alien workers in an tanking economy burdens the economy even more. Having a cache of alien workers that leave the country when economy goes down provide a stop-gap measure
 
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I have been in both US(Silicon Valley) and UK(London) for few months.

For a software guy.
As far as software opportunity is considered I believe US is the place to be...

Taxing and Transportation
I find UK guys are the only people who tax for eating, sleeping and drinking as well ... just kidding... too much taxing..
Local transportation is the best in London, and if you dont have a car in US you are literally killed...

Life style and Savings
Both are equally good...

Time Outs
Much better in London (I mean Europe altogether).
 
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Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Europeans has an issue with American gun culture, but they are not worried about those millions who have a gun just to feel safe, or even those who use it hunt, Europeans area worried about the bad side of the bigger picture, teenagers massacring dozens in classrooms, drive by shootings, general lawlessness etc. Europeans are worried about the lack of value of life of the victims in America, because every thief, even a 10 year old shop lifter looking for a pack of sweet candies turns up with a lethal weapon, and well, you know the story! But I guess it�s a whole different discussion.



Indeed, when calculating the cost of living in America you have to consider the cost of insulating oneself from the criminal subculture you describe. There large areas in major cities where the majority of the people are third-generation living on-the-dole, the third-generation born to never-married mothers, where a third of the men between age 20 and 30 are either in prison, out of prison on parole, or awaiting trial. These communities have shocking rates of murder, hard-drug addiction, thievery, drive-by-shootings, child abuse, and just about any other social ill you can think of. So many of their children in school are rebellious, lazy, disobedient and violent that as many as half barely learn to read by the end of high school.

Because these people tend not to earn much money (except through drug dealing, which is unreliable), they cannot afford to live in the more expensive neighborhoods, which are much safer and which have safer schools that are able to function properly. That means that in America, one must earn enough to afford to live in a "decent neighborhood with decent schools." As most of these neighborhoods are outside the urban area (decent neighborhoods _in_ the city are atrociously expensive), you must have an automobile for each member of the family of driving age.

It is possible to live in a cheaper area in those states which allow people with clean records to carry firearms (as this is a great deterrence against attacking strangers), but you still need to factor in the cost of private school for one's children. (Private education, when funded by scholarships and donations, have done wonders with many children of the underclass, but only because they have the authority to expel children who are dangerous or defiant and disruptive. Public school teachers and administrators simply do not have the authority to impose high standards of student behavior.)

Unfortunately, it seems that these problems are now spreading to Europe, as well. I don't have much hope that Europeans will be able to stop the decline, as they're still trying to deceive themselves into believing that it is a gun or knife problem, rather than a general moral breakdown within certain subcultures. But to the extent that the problem is less advanced there, it must be factored into the cost of living when comparing salaries.
 
Greenhorn
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I suppose that if you have 3-4 children it is better to stay in Europe than in US.

In Europe you do not need to go for private education and health care, what is quite expensive. Also big family and house wife tax benefits can be significant.

I stay now in South Africa and current system forces me to do not have too many children, because it is expensive.

Any comments on that???

PS:

I read somewhere that somewhere in US (maybe Texas ...) it is forbidden to teach about carbon-radio method, how dinosaur bones are old, because it is again bible ...

Well if IT IS TRUE it sounds for me like a problem ...
I have to admit I am an atheist ...
 
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Originally posted by Damian FRACH:

I read somewhere that somewhere in US (maybe Texas ...) it is forbidden to teach about carbon-radio method, how dinosaur bones are old, because it is again bible ...

Well if IT IS TRUE it sounds for me like a problem ...
I have to admit I am an atheist ...


Georia school district sued
 
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Sorry, I didnt mean immigrants, I meant alien workers. My understand of the H1B visa is that it's there so that employers can import labor from outside the country on a temporary basis. So, if there is a shortage of a certain skill, employers are allowed to employ foriegners by sponsoring their H1 visa. Once the shortage reduces either through a) people on H1 becoming naturalized citizens, b) students in US learning the neccessary skills or c) reduction of demand of that skill set, the INS reduces the number of H1 visas. If the H1 visa is abolished, and another process is in place that makes it more difficult for employers to hire foriegn workers, then employers wont have any choice other than outsourcing. So, on one hand you have alien workers, and on the other hand, you have outsourcing. Which do you prefer?


Even if the border were open to all comers there will always be a shortage of workers in the US. There is no shortage, there never was a shortage of workers in IT.

In the US one who brings an entity to the market that is in high demand is supposed to be rewarded. One who fails to have a necessary item at the right time can pay or do without.

Opening the border to a group of people with specialized skills does a terrible injustice to people who made the investment in that area.

Without question outsourcing is prefered.

Eric - you need to fix France, it's your homeland, it's your responsibility. Or find a way to sell your skills in US via web.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Homer !

Opening the border to a group of people with specialized skills does a terrible injustice to people who made the investment in that area.

I believe you miss the point, if there is a shortage of specialized skills which is valuable to the country, not letting extra skilled people in will be good for people who made the investment in that area but bad for the country as business which can't be done in the country will be done elsewhere. You must find a balance for these people between their own welfare and welfare of the country they live in. The ideal is to let people in so that shortage still exists but is minimal, so relevant skills are still well rewarded while business isn't outsourced as staff power is adequate.

Without question outsourcing is prefered.

It is a very difficult matter. Outsourcing can turn outa as both benediction and catastrophy, on one hand it allows to share your work with other countries which then will become richer and make more business with you, but on the other hand it can drain all your work abroad. Chinese being particulary smart, when an outsource center is created the ask for an R&D center aside, so that not only they CAN do the work but they can learn too HOW to do it. Once they know, they will contact the clients and offer same work with same quality for much lower, and US (or any developped country doing the same) will never be able to compete. So this is a very hard subject, can be either good or bad, only time will show how it turns out.

Eric - you need to fix France, it's your homeland, it's your responsibility. Or find a way to sell your skills in US via web.

Eric ... and France ... it must be me , for I am the only participant to this thread with such caracteristics.
Yes I know, France is my homeland and I love it, and I could sell my skills in US via web, but no thanks, I won't do that. France is really a very special place unique in its kind, of course all countries have their pros and cons, but I can't go along anymore with them. One of the best definitions I heard about France is "a Soviet Union which succeeded". There is no place for individuality, richness is contempted, succeeding is despised. No, I want to try to achieve something, to build my own company, I already have the prototype of the product which will allow to make it. But I won't try in France for it is useless even trying for such product, only in US after some years when I'm there. When you want to create your own IT business, US is the place to be, not France (unless you have much money at start, which is not the case of individuals).
What is more I am honest, I could easily try to sell remotely, living in a country with low taxes, but I won't try. Even if there are many taxes in USA too, I will try to go there for my business. Taxes pay public hospitals, school, police, roads, and many useful things for citizens, so they must exist but remain moderate, like in US, but in France they are excessive.

Best regards.
 
Frank Silbermann
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Originally posted by Damian FRACH:
I suppose that if you have 3-4 children it is better to stay in Europe than in US. In Europe you do not need to go for private education and health care, what is quite expensive. Also big family and house wife tax benefits can be significant.

I stay now in South Africa and current system forces me to do not have too many children, because it is expensive.



The problem in Europe is that its "efficient public transportation" becomes quite expensive if there are five or six in the family. And gasoline/petrol prices are so high that few people can afford to drive an autombile that can hold two parents and three or four children.

Because of the social welfare net, Europeans don't think they need children to take care of them in their old age, and cannot afford them anyway because of the taxes needed to pay for the social welfare net. The only people having more than one child average per family are refuges who, having left third-world countries, now feel wealthy living in Europe on the dole.

Originally posted by Damian FRACH:
I read somewhere that somewhere in US (maybe Texas ...) it is forbidden to teach about carbon-radio method, how dinosaur bones are old, because it is against bible ...

Well if IT IS TRUE it sounds for me like a problem ...
I have to admit I am an atheist ...



That's probably just one small rural town, and you can buy books on evolution for your children anyway.
 
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Why is it that people in this world that should be procreating can't have them, don't have time or energy for it? Intelligent, hardworking people are the ones that should be having kids. But alas! it is people that don't think about how they can support kids or can't support are the ones that end up having more. It creates an interesting balance in humankind...
 
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Intelligent, hardworking people are the ones that should be having kids.


So who elected you God?
 
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Originally posted by Prema Chakravarthy:
it is people that don't think about how they can support kids or can't support are the ones that end up having more.


At present, India is the country that continues to have the fastest growing population in the world. Does it mean people in India are all stupid and lazy? Well, maybe a few are really stupid but most of them are hardworking.
 
Sheriff
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Recent posts put this thread very close to being moved to Meaningless Drivel. Please try to stay on job related topics: different countries job markets, standards of living, wage differences, career opportunities, work permits, etc. Topics to be avoided: why this countries culture is good/bad, family values, history of a country, which people are smarter, etc.

In general, if you can quantify things (e.g. unemployment rates, salaries, etc) it's probably a safer topic for this thread and this topic.

--Mark
 
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Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Recent posts put this thread very close to being moved to Meaningless Drivel.



... where it would be instantly moved to the Trash. C'mon, folks, remember the Prime Directive of JavaRanch: Be Nice.
 
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[Mark H]: However, let us be mindful that it can be a powder keg, and we don't want it to turn into a flame war, or general venting about racism. What passes in Meaningless Drivel won't here.

You haven't visited MD in a while, eh? This thread would have been closed long ago there.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi all !

So as thread was "GB vs the USA", a conclusion before closing ?

If "GB" meant "UK", and as this thread supposed immigration, I would say GB is winner over USA without discussion but simply by disqualification of USA before the contest : an IT professionnal cannot simply any longer legaly emigrate to USA right now, so any other country beats them in this field by definition.

I know, there are always 2 valid ways to immigrate which are DV lottery and marriage, but thread must imply "serious" ways so labor visa considering its title, not pure chance or supposed (? interested ?) romance.

I know, many US citizens praised how much US are better anyway and we had passionate debates, but my conclusion after reading the whole thread again is simple : in matter of IT immigration US is screwed, simply because "serious" immigration of really checked qualified aliens has become impossible in practice. So no ones cares whether qualified IT immigrants are better in USA or not, they can't come anyway so they must go elsewhere. It could change latter, but right now it is reality.

We could reopen this thread when immigration issues in USA are over, which should be in some few years (I bet 5 years unless laws change, or GC becomes directly reachable) unless the trend for which I made a new thread "New job trend ?" (https://coderanch.com/t/29062/Jobs/careers/New-job-trend) is quickly verified :
_ H1B has become unapplicable both practically and in a legal way, all cap is filled within 1 single day but if you file a petition early your company must wait you for mounths and late you're screwed as cap is over, many abuses (even proved on Java ranch by some offers offering H1B posts, which implied fake personnal documents to exploit them), now byword for crap wages and labor, and no INS in sight to fight any abuse despite many testimonies, even on Java ranch.
_ GC is "impossible" to get right away unless you are a Nobel price. I know, an indian on this forum pulled my leg stating he could anyway, but ... I am still awainting his testimony despite he was invited explicitely to comment, so I remain on my opinion untill fair criticism arises.
_ All other forms of visas are not relevant for IT case, L for example is for alien branches/subsidiaries who import qualified staff so not for US companies who cannot do this by definition.

So "God save the queen", score one (GB/UK) to zero (USA) for HMI (Her Majesty's Immigrants) untill USA are legally armed so as to be able to play next revenge match. USA lost a battle against GB on immigration field, but war is not over AFAIK.

Best regards.
 
peter wooster
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi all !

So as thread was "GB vs the USA", a conclusion before closing ?

If "GB" meant "UK", and as this thread supposed immigration, I would say GB is winner over USA without discussion but simply by disqualification of USA before the contest : an IT professionnal cannot simply any longer legaly emigrate to USA right now, so any other country beats them in this field by definition.
...Best regards.



Have you considered Canada, especially Quebec, much like the States but French is an asset, not a liablity.
 
Mark Herschberg
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[Mark H]: However, let us be mindful that it can be a powder keg, and we don't want it to turn into a flame war, or general venting about racism. What passes in Meaningless Drivel won't here.

You haven't visited MD in a while, eh? This thread would have been closed long ago there.



I like to believe the good people of this forum can tackle controversial issues in an even-tempered manner.

--Mark
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi peter !

Have you considered Canada, especially Quebec, much like the States but French is an asset, not a liablity.

Yes I did, visiting the "cousins canadiens" looks like a good idea at first sight, but it looks like they are saturated too, there should be little place for newcomers right now. The whole northern american hemisphere economy seems recovering from past internet bubble, so right now it looks even harder to find an IT job there than in US (visa issues apart of course).

What is more they are no fools, they are very demanding about potential immigrants for they want only serious ones who stay, so they ask for good skills, basic knowledge of english and french, and of canadian history too. And it takes 10 years to become a canadian citizen.

So it is not obvious at all considering where to emigrate if you feel you have to, I would say UK is the best option right now for a qualified IT worker if you are an EEC citizen, but their very high cost of living especially about housing makes them a bad option for retirement.

Best regards.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


I would like to see a crack down on illegal immigration, an end to H1B visas except in very special circumstances, and an increase in the number of lottery spots.

I think I am typical of most Americans. We are opposed to immigrant migrant workers (I'll live in the US as long as the economy is good but as soon as I have enough money or the economy turns bad I'm going back home). But we support the idea of hard working people from around the world coming to the US to enjoy our freedom and become permanent residents and ultimately citizens of the USA.



I have mixed feelings. In the long term the H1B program has worked well. I had a lot of valued colleagues and friends who came in on H1B's and became permanent residents and even citizens of the US.

I have a different perspective as I am US citizen and a permanent resident of the UK. I went through the same tech depression that virtually everyone else on this board did. The causes had little to do with H1B or with alien interlopers.

Cause #1 was a 90% collapse in demand for new projects. At least 90% in Telecoms, probably a bit less elsewhere. Cause #2 was outsourcing. Of the 10% (or whatever) remaining work, possibly half or more went to India. Cut a 10% lifeline to a 4% lifeline and it gets much worse. Cause #3 was the abuse of the US H1B program. The quota had been tripled and major US software houses were snapping them up as cheap and reliable code monkeys. There was undeniable abuse of the H1B program. Particularly after mass layoffs of US citizen and green card holders removed the rationale for the larger quota (and perhaps for H1B at all)?

I think H1B needs to be reformed possibly to restrict the H1B quota after years of slow or negative economic growth. I also think a portion of the H1B quota should be reserved for occupations such as nurses & teachers, and some reserved for small businesses. The current system encourages mass 'importers' such as Microsoft, Sun, HP, Oracle, etc to line up an enormous list of H1B applications and submit them all on the first day of the new year. Monopolizing H1B almost completely. Not good.
 
Don Stadler
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:


Opening the border to a group of people with specialized skills does a terrible injustice to people who made the investment in that area.

I believe you miss the point, if there is a shortage of specialized skills which is valuable to the country, not letting extra skilled people in will be good for people who made the investment in that area but bad for the country as business which can't be done in the country will be done elsewhere. You must find a balance for these people between their own welfare and welfare of the country they live in. The ideal is to let people in so that shortage still exists but is minimal, so relevant skills are still well rewarded while business isn't outsourced as staff power is adequate.



Eric, what you write is perfectly true about 90% of the time. What Homer wrote is only true during tech depressions. Unfortunately this is a tech depression. One thing which can be done to help a few native workers is to limit programs like H1B. Also it is clear that H1B has been misused - made into an institutional method to import masses of low-cost and lowly-skilled lobor into the US to undercut the wages of the job market.

I think we may see legislation to limit the misuse of H1B, although whether that turns out to be an improvement is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

Eric - you need to fix France, it's your homeland, it's your responsibility. Or find a way to sell your skills in US via web.

Eric ... and France ... it must be me , for I am the only participant to this thread with such caracteristics.
Yes I know, France is my homeland and I love it, and I could sell my skills in US via web, but no thanks, I won't do that. France is really a very special place unique in its kind, of course all countries have their pros and cons, but I can't go along anymore with them. One of the best definitions I heard about France is "a Soviet Union which succeeded". There is no place for individuality, richness is contempted, succeeding is despised. No, I want to try to achieve something, to build my own company,
[/QB]



Eric, you are perfectly correct about France. It is a special and singular place. Probably the biggest French flaw is the attitude toward business culture. I love both France and Italy (Italy about 1% more). A Bush voter living in the Reddest of cities (London) who is absolutely daft about both France and Italy. A paradox, no?

I'm afraid that you have a problem right here and now. It's possible that the situation will change in the US and US will change the law to make it easier for you to become the next Phillipe Kahn (Borland). The problem is that the law tends to react too late to the current situation. So when US IT workers were suffering the worst the H1B law kept on making the pain worse. Now that it's finally changed it's unlikely to change back until the tech depression is merely a bad memory. That may be happening as we speak. Things have definately changed in the UK, with quite a bit of new work and real work now available. I'm seeing analyst positions for the first time in years! Requirements, design, the whole thing.

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

I already have the prototype of the product which will allow to make it. But I won't try in France for it is useless even trying for such product, only in US after some years when I'm there. When you want to create your own IT business, US is the place to be, not France (unless you have much money at start, which is not the case of individuals).
What is more I am honest, I could easily try to sell remotely, living in a country with low taxes, but I won't try. Even if there are many taxes in USA too, I will try to go there for my business. Taxes pay public hospitals, school, police, roads, and many useful things for citizens, so they must exist but remain moderate, like in US, but in France they are excessive.

[/QB]



There are a some ways you can begin. You could take a backpacking trip and just happen to visit US technical hotbeds such as Silicon Valley, Austin, Atlanta, maybe Chicago. Guys could you help me out here? Other good spots?

Take your laptop on your backpacking trip and line up some informational interviews. I'm not sure with who. Show some people a demo and see whether you get some interest. Try visiting MBA schools and attend entrepenuerial club meetings at places like Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, MIT. Maybe Univerity of Chicago and Harvard also. Show off your stuff and see if you can't find some partners. All this you could do on a tourist entry easily because you would not be getting paid.

Your US Partner(s) could front the US end while you still work in France. You still pay French taxes on personal income but the company would be registered in the US under US tax law. As a principal in a business I doubt that H1B visas will apply. There is another program for people seeking to employ US citizens. In the beginning you can probably work for a fair period each year for 'business meetings'. Not sure how long this would be but typically in Europe I could do this for a month or two a year at least. I think it was 3 months in Germany.

Try Prague or Warsaw. I think one or both will become the Silicon Valley of Europe (assuming France and Germany don't become economically sane).

BTW, what is your idea (if you care to tell). My email is registered on my user profile.
 
Don Stadler
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi all !

So as thread was "GB vs the USA", a conclusion before closing ?

If "GB" meant "UK", and as this thread supposed immigration, I would say GB is winner over USA without discussion but simply by disqualification of USA before the contest : an IT professionnal cannot simply any longer legaly emigrate to USA right now, so any other country beats them in this field by definition.

<...>

So "God save the queen", score one (GB/UK) to zero (USA) for HMI (Her Majesty's Immigrants) untill USA are legally armed so as to be able to play next revenge match. USA lost a battle against GB on immigration field, but war is not over AFAIK.

Best regards.



Eric, I would say that it's completely situational. As a French citizen you can move to the UK and work without a work permit. But a Pole, Hungarian, or Slovene might not be able to legally work here despite being EU citizens. And of course it is considerably more restrictive in many other EU countries.

I live in the UK as a US citizen but only because I have a permanent work visa. I moved here in 1999 during a hot market. Could I do so today? Forget it, Jack! No way. I tried to get my company to consider employing Mark Herschberg when they had some openings he was immensely qualified for. Without a permanent UK visa they wouldn't even look at his CV. Idon't think they have open entry even for their Commonwealth partners any more.Or not for some of those countries.

None = none.
 
Joe King
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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
The problem in Europe is that its "efficient public transportation" becomes quite expensive if there are five or six in the family. And gasoline/petrol prices are so high that few people can afford to drive an autombile that can hold two parents and three or four children.



I see what you mean, but its not necessarily hugely more expensive to travel by public transport with more kids. On the trains its often possible to buy family tickets etc. On buses children quite often have a very cheap fare until they are in late teens... by which point they can be earning money to pay for it themselves. A lot of the consideration is down to location though - people that live in rural areas will most likely not be able to use public transport much, but in cities public transport is usually fairly good and cheap.

It should also be possible to run even a large family around in a smallish car. Most cars can fit five people in them, even those with the small 1l engines (I once went on a 400 mile holiday journey in a Peugeot 106 as one of five. Squashed, but possible!).


Because of the social welfare net, Europeans don't think they need children to take care of them in their old age, and cannot afford them anyway because of the taxes needed to pay for the social welfare net.


Should people be having children just to look after them in old age? Seems a bit odd - having children is about a lot more than just acquiring a future asset

As for affording them, its actually the opposite. While taxes are higher (but not largely so in comparison with the US), a part of that tax goes towards things like child support, tax free children's books and clothes, subsidised public transport for kids, publicly run schools etc. If taxes were reduced along with a cut in social welfare, many parents would be worse off, not better off.

The only people having more than one child average per family are refuges who, having left third-world countries, now feel wealthy living in Europe on the dole.


Not really. If that were so then the population of Europe would be outnumbered by immigrant families fairly quickly. While some European countries (Germany I think is one example) do have a declining native population, its no where near as dramatic as a situation where most native people are only having one child. Single child families are still rarer than multiple child families, especally so in countries like Spain, Italy and Greece.
 
Don Stadler
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Originally posted by Joe King:

Not really. If that were so then the population of Europe would be outnumbered by immigrant families fairly quickly. While some European countries (Germany I think is one example) do have a declining native population, its no where near as dramatic as a situation where most native people are only having one child. Single child families are still rarer than multiple child families, especally so in countries like Spain, Italy and Greece.




According to
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/fecondite2.html
the fertility rate (average children per woman) is 1.1 in the Czech Republic, 1.2 in Spain, 1.3 in Italy, Germany, Hungary, Austria, and Greece, 1.4 in Poland, 1.5 in Switzerland, Sweden, and Portugal, 1.7 in the Nederlands, UK, Finland, Denmark, and Luxembourg, 1.8 in Norway, and 1.9 in France and Ireland. It is 2.1 in the US, 1.4 in Canada, and 1.3 in Japan for comparison purposes. Replacement rate is generally considered to be 2.1.

The conclusion I draw is that none of the EU countries are replacing their current population from people living there now and that the majority of the EU (considered in terms of total population) is reproducing at a rate closer to 1 child per woman than to 2. My guess is that the average EU-wide is about 1.4 or so.
[ November 15, 2004: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]
 
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Eric: Appart for the single case of communist countries where you are given a job or authorized to have the one you chose,

What countries were talking of? In the former Soviet Union you would choose your profession just like in any other country, except you didn't have to pay for your college. "you are given a job" - what the heck it means? Speaking about changing careers, my mother is a metallurgist, and her friend who worked with her is a geologist by education/

If you wanted to change your job, I am afraid I forgot details, but I think all you needed was a letter from your job that you need second education. Of course, you would pay nothing once again. In my group of about 30 students, we had 5 or 6 people for whom this would be a second degree... And "authorized to have the one you chose" -- please, enlighten me, what this is about?
 
Jayesh Lalwani
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I'm curious. what if you didnt want to work? or you wanted to work 6 months and freak out for 6 months?
 
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I'm curious. what if you didnt want to work? or you wanted to work 6 months and freak out for 6 months?



In Poland, where I come from, all people worked for country during the socialistic period (till the late 80ies). Having private company or working for private was tolerated, although it was treated as something bad. You got your job fitting to your qualifications, e.g. you couldn't work as an engineer not having degree, but you had full guarranty you won't be fired. No one could do you anything just because you were doing nothing. People were working a little just because laziness is more boring than doing a little work, but not much. That's why communism collapsed.
If Poles would not experiment with socialism, Poland would be probably as rich as Spain now.
[ November 17, 2004: Message edited by: Michal Wiezik ]
[ November 17, 2004: Message edited by: Michal Wiezik ]
 
Damian FRACH
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>>> In the former Soviet Union you would choose your profession just like in any other country

Are sure really sure??? Did you live there???

In the Czech republic during deep communism you needed the political permission to do any better job.

Also with very good degree they could send you on a farm

Also you did not need to be allowed to study anything if they did not "trust" you

And Russian communism was much more tougher then the Czech one ...
 
Damian FRACH
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>> I'm curious. what if you didnt want to work? or you wanted to work 6 months and freak out for 6 months?

if you do not work you will go to a jail ...
at least 6 months ... called parasitism or freeloading
labor camp or whatever ...

political prisoners (e.g. priests ...) worked in uranium mines ...
9 from 10 doctors do not recommend that ...

IMHO: if you see some communist just shoot him ....
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Don !

BTW, what is your idea (if you care to tell). My email is registered on my user profile.

I tried to use this email address but got a server error about your account, so I couldn't answer, sorry.

Best regards.
 
Don Stadler
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Don !

BTW, what is your idea (if you care to tell). My email is registered on my user profile.

I tried to use this email address but got a server error about your account, so I couldn't answer, sorry.

Best regards.



Oops, Eric. My bad. An old email address. I've now updated it and email should get through now!
 
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