Advice needed - Urgent

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Rob Aught:
I could give a flying crap about the H1-B visa program "affecting US Jobs". No Indian has stolen a job from me, but I have competed and lost jobs to them before. I have no complaints, that is how the market works.

What I would like to think is that the people I am competing against are the real deal. That someone who is basically a fraud did not somehow win a position instead of me. That while I would have been the better candidate and was honest about my experience, the job went to someone who is not going to do as good a job and lied through their teeth. I sincerely hope I have never lost a chance at a job because of someone like that.

I do and have worked with many Indians. I don't know how widespread this practice really is because most of them have been quite knowledgable. And if you think you can fake competence you may be in for a very rude surprise.

I'd like to think that you'll get your just desserts in the end, but part of me is nagging at the fact that someone else will likely end up losing a position to you for you to end up learning your lesson. Someone who has been honest is going to have to suffer for your selfishness. Worse yet, because H1's are limited, a good person may not get to come to the US. We really don't need anymore dishonest people, we create enough of those ourselves. No need to import.

I'm a big supporter of immigration and diversity. Two things I believe has made the US very strong and have certainly contributed to its ongoing greatness. What you are doing is putting not only yourself but your fellow Indians in a bad light. You are helping spread a very bad stereotype. Your actions will resonate far beyond yourself. Indeed, it may have a negative impact on some of my own co-workers whom I think highly of and don't deserve the constant xenophobia that you are helping to reinforce.

So please quit trying to justify it. I can't believe that the moderators would even leave a topic open where the person is basically asking people to help them lie and cheat.

[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Rob Aught ]

[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Rob Aught ]

Hi,

I am really sorry. everything that's happening is business. Please see what amit has posted
"You see, the managers of these companies are not dumb. They know whats going on. It benefits them as well as the consultant and the employee. So its a win-win for all. The manager saves costs by avoiding to hire a full time employee (benefits?visa costs?), the consultant makes money by marketing the candidate as if they have 5 years experience and for the entry level candidate, a start of 55k is extremely goood. Sad, but true. Most times, HR doesnt even care about the candidate, because they aren't a full time hire but rather, an hourly paid contractor"

Think yourself as an employer. What do u look for? U want the project to be completed at low cost. I know some of my friends who worked for 16 hours a day in the first 3 months of project (even on weekends) and taking pay for only 8 hours. This kind of hard working is generally not found in non-desis. I swear that I have no interest in showing 5 yrs expereince. I want to start up in an entry level job. But the managers (desis and non-desis from big mnc's) who inspite of knowing that a person has fake experience calls a person for an interview if he has atleast 5 yrs of expereince and hire him if he has some knowledge.

[Amit Saini]

Bachi's situation has become fairly common in the USA. I don't find it shocking. Some of my batchmates as well as my seniors indulged in this as their last resort. Either they had to return to India as the OPT expired or they were forced to go to a consultant, fake experience and make decent money. Most of them chose the 2nd option.

I am not supporting this. In the long run, its bad for the candidate as well as everyone else. Its completely unethical and illegal. But the fact is, on one hand you have the option of going back to India and on the other hand you have the option of *doing what a lot of ppl do illegaly* and make 55k-60k. 55k-60k for a fresher is a lot of money and that is a big factor for motivating fresh grads to do this.

You've got to accept that its just business, nothing personal. Companies make profits and that is where the story ends. Everything else is secondary. The company couldn't care less if their hourly contractor is a MIT grad or has faked experience as long as they are getting results out of that contractor. The moment that stops, the candidate gets fired.

While some of them end up getting royally screwed in this process of faking experience, there are others who manage to impress their managers and get hired full time into the very companies where they were working as contractors.

Its a strange and dangerous trend. Its not a perfect world!

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Amit Saini:
Bachi's situation has become fairly common in the USA. I don't find it shocking. Some of my batchmates as well as my seniors indulged in this as their last resort. Either they had to return to India as the OPT expired or they were forced to go to a consultant, fake experience and make decent money. Most of them chose the 2nd option.

I am not supporting this. In the long run, its bad for the candidate as well as everyone else. Its completely unethical and illegal. But the fact is, on one hand you have the option of going back to India and on the other hand you have the option of *doing what a lot of ppl do illegaly* and make 55k-60k. 55k-60k for a fresher is a lot of money and that is a big factor for motivating fresh grads to do this.

You've got to accept that its just business, nothing personal. Companies make profits and that is where the story ends. Everything else is secondary. The company couldn't care less if their hourly contractor is a MIT grad or has faked experience as long as they are getting results out of that contractor. The moment that stops, the candidate gets fired.

While some of them end up getting royally screwed in this process of faking experience, there are others who manage to impress their managers and get hired full time into the very companies where they were working as contractors.

Its a strange and dangerous trend. Its not a perfect world!

Thanks Amit. I agree with amit. Only 1 out of 10 are srewed in this process.

[Amit Saini]

Thanks Amit. I agree with amit. Only 1 out of 10 are srewed in this process.

I really don't support this trend. And I'm most definitely not encouraging you to do this so dont thank me I am 100% against this practice, theres nothing I can do about it other than encourage ppl who do this to look for entry level jobs matching their background.

In the long term its going to hurt people OR the feds are going to come down heavily on this OR something will be done to stop this mess!! I just wanted to let other people know that its become a fairly common situation to be in, in the USA.

I dont know the percentages are of how many are screwed in the process. I am however aware that consultants suck the blood out of you. In any case, its illegal and unethical. That should be reason enough for this to stop.

My only advice to you is, even if you get into this, try to look for another job asap where you can be a direct hire and work for a position that is more in tune with your background. Believe me, you'll earn more respect that way and be at peace of mind.

Good luck.
Amit

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Amit Saini:


I really don't support this trend. And I'm most definitely not encouraging you to do this so dont thank me I am 100% against this practice, theres nothing I can do about it other than encourage ppl who do this to look for entry level jobs matching their background.

In the long term its going to hurt people OR the feds are going to come down heavily on this OR something will be done to stop this mess!! I just wanted to let other people know that its become a fairly common situation to be in, in the USA.

I dont know the percentages are of how many are screwed in the process. I am however aware that consultants suck the blood out of you. In any case, its illegal and unethical. That should be reason enough for this to stop.

My only advice to you is, even if you get into this, try to look for another job asap where you can be a direct hire and work for a position that is more in tune with your background. Believe me, you'll earn more respect that way and be at peace of mind.

Good luck.
Amit

Hi Amit,

Even I dont support this trend. This trend can only be changed by the managers who r hiring. I was thanking you for telling that this trend has become common. I will definitely look for a new job after I get two pay cheques and if I find difficult to survive in the job.

bachi

[Shruti Ramachandra]

folks,

I think you are just wasting your time. He is going to learn his lesson the hard way... he has no respect for people or the profession

[David O'Meara]

You can become a great programmer by doing a diploma program for 1 year
Saying it doesn't make it true.
I hope you express this as an opinion, in which case I say I disagree and think you are mistaken. If you state it as fact I'd like to see those people in the real world, just not on my projects please.

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Shruti Ramachandra:
folks,

I think you are just wasting your time. He is going to learn his lesson the hard way... he has no respect for people or the profession

oh really! Haven't u chosen ur profession just for making money? Why haven't u chosen a phd and done some research? I don't say all of the computer professionals r for money (but most of them). Programming is just not j2ee. I have met a guy from Isreal in my first job. He was very good at asp.net. he has done a one year diploma. So most of the computer professionals have chosen this field to make money.

[Jason Cox]

Perhaps, but most of us do it honestly.

[Anand Prabhu]

Originally posted by David O'Meara:

If you misrepresent yourself or knowingly allow someone else to misrepresent you, that's probably a good case for fraud. I'm no lawyer, but doing it another country probably doesn't help. If it blows up in your face it won't help you when you return either. The jails are full of people who wished they'd just told the judge "but everyone was doing it".

This says it good. One can get away with many things but if the BCIS or labor department manage to catch this, it could lead to permanent blacklisting and deportation. I frankly don't know whether to admire the poster for being so covert with his intentions or wonder about his intentions for publicly broadcasting that in an international forum. A "google" would have helped more than posting here. To elaborate on David's example, it is like driving in USA. Almost everyone drives above the speed limit but the unlucky one who gets pulled over cannot expect not to get a ticket and a fine by saying "Yeah, but the others were driving way above the limit too".

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Rob Aught:
Perhaps, but most of us do it honestly.

But those days are gone. If I had born 5 years back, I would have chosen ur path.

[Jason Cox]

Give me a break. I was a fresher once to.

There is no ethical, legal, or moral justification for what you are doing. None. Defend it all you like. You're the one who has to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.

Just remember what I said about I recommend and occasionally place talent though. I can and do spot people like you. I don't care if you're from India or Indiana. If you're a fraud and I found out, I'll be more than happy to encourage the powers that be to let you go. There are many many people like me out there in the job market. As Abraham Lincoln said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

Ultimately, this will not end well for you. You may get away with it for awhile, but you will not get away with it forever.

What you are doing is wrong. That is all there is to it.

Oh, and also, you think your degree with save you? I have no Computer Science degree and yet I routinely mentor people who are new to the field. Spotting a recent graduate is not hard. You are lying to yourself if you think you can fake five years of experience. You have no idea what you will learn with five years of real experience. There is a world of difference between the cubicle and the classroom.
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Rob Aught ]

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Rob Aught:
Give me a break. I was a fresher once to.

If I was applying for a job in my home country or any other country, I wouldn't show any fake experience. This is just an adaptation to the trend in states.

[Mark Herschberg]

I was traveling yesterday and am only just now gtting back to this thread. I apprciat David O'Meara also keeping an eye on it. I am very concerned about where this thread is heading.

I am strongly against lying of any type and feel that what Bachi is doing is wrong. That said, this must still be a civil discussion. I look at Bachi and don't see so much an "evil" person as a misguided one. While you have a right to fel outraged by his actions (or supportive, if that is your position), the best way to influence a person is through a dialog and not a shouting match.

Continued posts in this thread will hopefully continue the discussion and name simply fan the flames.

--Mark

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I was traveling yesterday and am only just now gtting back to this thread. I apprciat David O'Meara also keeping an eye on it. I am very concerned about where this thread is heading.

I am strongly against lying of any type and feel that what Bachi is doing is wrong. That said, this must still be a civil discussion. I look at Bachi and don't see so much an "evil" person as a misguided one. While you have a right to fel outraged by his actions (or supportive, if that is your position), the best way to influence a person is through a dialog and not a shouting match.

Continued posts in this thread will hopefully continue the discussion and name simply fan the flames.

--Mark

I knew what I am doing is wrong. I have no choice. I am learning all the technologies required to become a j2ee programmer. This just "survival for existence" There are thousand of people (not only indians) doing this. The only thing is I posted the truth in the forum.

[Prem Khan]

I dont think programming is a tough job. Everyone writes the same code based on specifications. I believe professional programming is a lot easier than academic programming. I just expressed what i felt after looking at the replies.

I on the other hand agree with you ! Writing a compiler in lex and hex as a part of a com-sci degree(iv seen it) is A LOT hard than......

following someone else coding conventions and copying styles from a pre existing company app. Against a pre packaged database and front end framework............

most of the people I have met in the industry in Edmonon Canada are simply not creative and can not come up with any idea of there own. They are not even good programmers, some of them with years in the industry dont even know the fundumentals.

They got on simply because they are in a good social circle !

And as far as indian programmers in canada go.... they must be twice as good as anyone else just to be considered for the same job.

[Kj Reddy]

Originally posted by bachi mat:


I have no choice.

How about trying entry level job in Canada itself? Are there not enough job for freshers?

[Prem Khan]

Cant anyone simply answer the man's question instead of pretending to be all moral and ethical.?.... this is business ! This is how programmers make their money.

I would tell you all about J2EE interviews but I dont know ! I got this job without one.

[Ramesh Choudhary]

Originally Posted by Rib Aught

I'm a big supporter of immigration and diversity. Two things I believe has made the US very strong and have certainly contributed to its ongoing greatness. What you are doing is putting not only yourself but your fellow Indians in a bad light. You are helping spread a very bad stereotype. Your actions will resonate far beyond yourself. Indeed, it may have a negative impact on some of my own co-workers whom I think highly of and don't deserve the constant xenophobia that you are helping to reinforce.

Well said.


Mr.Bachi, no necessity can condone a dishonest act. Many of my friends(in North America) are working in Restuarants, delivering Pizzas, toiling at gas filling stations. Refrain from undertaking any foolhardy adventures. Return home and you will get a good job.
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Ramesh Choudhary ]

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Rob Aught:
Give me a break. I was a fresher once to.

There is no ethical, legal, or moral justification for what you are doing. None. Defend it all you like. You're the one who has to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.

Just remember what I said about I recommend and occasionally place talent though. I can and do spot people like you. I don't care if you're from India or Indiana. If you're a fraud and I found out, I'll be more than happy to encourage the powers that be to let you go. There are many many people like me out there in the job market. As Abraham Lincoln said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

Ultimately, this will not end well for you. You may get away with it for awhile, but you will not get away with it forever.

What you are doing is wrong. That is all there is to it.

Oh, and also, you think your degree with save you? I have no Computer Science degree and yet I routinely mentor people who are new to the field. Spotting a recent graduate is not hard. You are lying to yourself if you think you can fake five years of experience. You have no idea what you will learn with five years of real experience. There is a world of difference between the cubicle and the classroom.

[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Rob Aught ]

Oh really! then how come there are thousands of programmers working like me. how come they are not being fired? You r not the only person who decides the fate of a job. I have been prograamming from 5th standard (starting from BASIC). Programming isn't a tough job. First, get a degree having a thesis. Then, talk to me. I have talked to some phd guys in my department. They feel pity on themselves because if they choose ur profession they have to work under guys like u who don't the true value of a phd degree. Programming is not just j2ee.

[Prem Khan]

How about trying entry level job in Canada itself? Are there not enough job for freshers?

NO there are none... they dont exist

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by KJ Reddy:


How about trying entry level job in Canada itself? Are there not enough job for freshers?

Its tought to get a job in Canada without immigration. I have attended plenty of interview. Even though I did well, they do not want to hire me as I dont have immigration and getting a work permit is a tough process.

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Ramesh Choudhary:


Well said.


Mr.Bachi, no necessity can condone a dishonest act. Many of my friends(in North America) are working in Restuarants, delivering Pizzas, toiling at gas filling stations. Refrain from undertaking any foolhardy adventures. Return home and you will get a good job.

[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Ramesh Choudhary ]

But none of my friends r in a position as ur friends. I have done two certifications, preparing for the third, almost completing masters in computer science and also learning the skills for a j2ee programmer. People like u r afraid of losing job to a better programmer

[Ram kovis]

Bachi boss seems to be on fire :-)

BAchi,
INstead of wasting time here, I suggest you to go to Google and search for java questions.. you will get plenty.. MOstly look for Struts..
Also learn JDBC concepts.. try some sample applcaitons . Go through several articles on J2EE , available in javarach and onjava.com, tss.. you will get better ideas..

we know, you are not only one, who is doing this.. you are just a drop in the ocean.. I have seen so many people doing this.. just be cool ..learn stuff..
Also, one more suggestion , create a new javaranch id.. and come back here.. :-))

By the by, I am not supporting , what he is doing.. I have 5+ years of genuine experince..I am not a H1 candidate also.. I work for indian based company..came here on deputation :-)
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Ram kovis ]

[Amit Saini]

NO there are none... they dont exist

Shawn -> So dont companies come to campus for placement? I thought Canada was home to some really good universities like McGill etc.
What do CS grads do after graduation from Canadian universities?
Can you throw some more light?
Thanks,
AMit

[Akhilesh Trivedi]

Fooooooooooooh! It took me 45 minutes to get the suspense out, for what the topic of discussion could have been all about with nearly 62 replies.

Bachi, one thing... people around you can help you in decision making but can not take decisions on your behalf... it is always on the individual himself to do it. You sure know, what you are doing or going to do is wrong... coming to, whether it is legal or illegal

Nothing is illegal until it is caught. Your case may not be labled as ILLEGAL even after getting caught. Whatever, if you feel you want to take the risk, go ahead and take them just see to it that all your risks are "calculated risks"... and if you want on discuss "how to take calculated risks in life" then this is not the place to do so.

Ok here is copy of your first post....


Bachi here is copy of your first post.....

Hi,

I am doing masters in computer science in canada. I got my H1 for 2006. The company that hired me will market my resume (mentioning that I have 5 years of j2ee experience). I am very good at core java. I have done scwcd 1.4 and will be done with scbcd 1.3 in 15 days. Please advice me on how to prepare for interviews and what technolgies I have to learn

Thanks,

Dont mix up things bachi....
1. Put your visa/immigration queries on separate place.
2. Put your technical queries in separate place.
3. Put your recruitment queries in separate place.

Grind all this in your head... why your head? because it is you who is having all this problem, they all meet in your head. Solve them up there and make a decision. Good Luck! !!

Out of all that lengthy paragraph the last you wanted two things....
"Please ADVICE ON how to prepare for INTERVIEWS and what TECHNOLOGIES I have to learn"


And here is the copy of the second post

Thanks for ur reply. I have heard that a company doesn't call u for an interview only if u have atleast 4 to 5 years of experience. The company has asked me to be learn:

UML
Struts
Junit
Websphere or Weblogic.

Please suggest. I am a very qucik programmer. I have done number of projects in Java (academic).

bachi

Out of two things one is already answered by the company in your own second post . So all you guys or girls whether from india or canada or U.S. or west bengal or pakistan or china or israel or iraq or ......... from wherever you be, dont type anything other than interview tips... and bachi go ahead and learn the stuff. If you have technical queries, you know where to put the right??
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Akhil Trivedi ]

[Mike Chaffin]

Started a thread on UK recruitment agents before reading his one...... :roll:

I've had my CV amended without my permission but would never allow the skullduggery that Bachi is appologising for. Not that I don't understand where he's coming from, though I suspect his confidence is somewhat misplaced.

Would it not be better just to tell employers how great you are without lying, or letting others lie, about your experience?

[bachi mat]

Hi everyone,

thanks for ur replies. Could anyone suggest me a book that teaches how the various tools used in j2ee environment are used to build a project.

bachi

[Amit Saini]

Read up some stuff on build tools like ANT. Thats one thing I can recommend. Be familiar a little bit with version control systems like SourceSafe or Subversion. Know some unit testing tool like JUnit. Know some basic design patterns like Front Controller, Business Delegate, Service Locator etc. I think these items are common to all J2EE projects. You dont really need a book for all this. A few google searches should give you the basics.
[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Amit Saini ]

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Amit Saini:
Read up some stuff on build tools like ANT. Thats one thing I can recommend. Be familiar a little bit with version control systems like SourceSafe or Subversion. Know some unit testing tool like JUnit. Know some basic design patterns like Front Controller, Business Delegate, Service Locator etc. I think these items are common to all J2EE projects. You dont really need a book for all this. A few google searches should give you the basics.

[ September 09, 2005: Message edited by: Amit Saini ]

Thanks Amit. How does Rational rose and eclipse fit into the j2ee environment.

bachi

[Amit Saini]

i dont know about rational rose. i think its a UML modelling tool. never used it though.

eclipse is by far one of the best and most widely used (not to mention, FREE!) java IDE's in the market today. the best feature is plugins. you can add all sorts of plugins into eclipse and you can develop your own plugins too.

it comes built in with junit and ant as plugins so you dont even need to cofigure it for that. visit www.eclipse.org for more details.

[bachi mat]

Thanks Amit. I have been using Eclipse from a month. I have found it very useful for my thesis implementation (especially while debugging with number of threads running at a time). Could u tell how the work flow is generally in a j2ee project. Something like:

Rational rose - design
Eclipse - coding

etc..

bachi

[Amit Saini]

Hi,
I'd be misguiding you if I said I know everything about J2EE development. I am new to all this personally and have just done academic EJB projects till now.

Maybe the experienced ranchers can throw more light on this.

[Prem Khan]

One issue you might wanna think about is whether or not EBJ is required in a given project.

[Luke Kolin]

Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:
One issue you might wanna think about is whether or not EBJ is required in a given project.

One way I have of screening applicant is that if they have anything good to say about EJB, they've obviousl not done enough j2ee work.

Cheers!

Luke

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by bachi mat:


I knew what I am doing is wrong. I have no choice.

Bullshit. You can find other work. There was a guy on this site who used to drive a truck and taught himself programming in his spare time. You are not forced to lie to get a job. Perhaps with your abilities and experience, you need to lie to get the job you want but I have no doubt that you could find other jobs somewhere in the world and avoid death as the alternative.

--Mark

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


Bullshit. You can find other work. There was a guy on this site who used to drive a truck and taught himself programming in his spare time. You are not forced to lie to get a job. Perhaps with your abilities and experience, you need to lie to get the job you want but I have no doubt that you could find other jobs somewhere in the world and avoid death as the alternative.

--Mark

Mind ur language. Are u so honest? Then u should be made a saint and serve the poor.

[Jayesh Lalwani]

Originally posted by bachi mat:


Mind ur language. Are u so honest? Then u should be made a saint and serve the poor.

Yes, there are people who *gasp* don't lie on their resume.

It's not difficult, really!! You just don't lie on your resume

[Saheed Adepoju]

Hi
I just read the postings so far and i feel kinda unhappy! The young man had the courage to announce that there were gonna be some alterations in his CV and it aint his fault! He used some hell of postings to clarify himself! Yes we all agree it's wrong, even he does! The least we could do is help him out with his postings! He wants resources for j2ee, then we give him resources and let him handle himself! My advice is that pick up the SCEA certification and work on yourself, i suppose u would learn alot and have a good certificate to show for it! Above all i wish you all the best! And pls let us all try and got abuse our little community by taking our little frustations on ourselves. Thanks!Do have a nice day!

[bachi mat]

Originally posted by Saheed Adepoju:
Hi
I just read the postings so far and i feel kinda unhappy! The young man had the courage to announce that there were gonna be some alterations in his CV and it aint his fault! He used some hell of postings to clarify himself! Yes we all agree it's wrong, even he does! The least we could do is help him out with his postings! He wants resources for j2ee, then we give him resources and let him handle himself! My advice is that pick up the SCEA certification and work on yourself, i suppose u would learn alot and have a good certificate to show for it! Above all i wish you all the best! And pls let us all try and got abuse our little community by taking our little frustations on ourselves. Thanks!Do have a nice day!

Hi Saheed,

Thanks for ur reply. I heard that it is tough to do SCEA unless u have some experience.