Win a copy of Five Lines of Code this week in the OO, Patterns, UML and Refactoring forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Ron McLeod
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Paul Clapham
Sheriffs:
  • Tim Cooke
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Junilu Lacar
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • fred rosenberger
  • salvin francis
Bartenders:
  • Piet Souris
  • Frits Walraven
  • Carey Brown

Clash of Civilizations!!

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

First af all, why do you want to convince someone on something.
and then there way of convincing is so great that no one can say NO. How can someone say NO to Rs. 2 lakhs, when he cannot even earn Rs.10 a day.
I will also convert in to chirstianity if you pay me 100 million $. But as I am expensive, you go to lower market where in 100 million $ you can buy 1 lakh people.
Is it bussiness or religion ??


And what the other person will get in return a coverted christian not a worthy business
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I dont like the RSS and VHP because they are not inclusive. Any organisation which uses religious based nationalism IMHO is not good.
But Pakka Desi may be on to something when it comes to the missionaries. Many of them are funded by right wing Christian organization in Western countries.
Also a lot of them who run orphanages etc,were using them as a cover for child pornography etc..The issue was considered serious enough, that it was taken up with the countries from where these offenders came from.
Of course there are people like Mother Theresa who derive their inspiration from Christianity,and are genuinely concerened about the people they help... but they are few.
 
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Ravish
food, clothes, education, money etc, missionaries do give all these things



It easy to convert a hindu to other religion in comparison to muslim or christian, As you people are saying that it is due to economic reasons is wrong because you will find many of the moslims/christians/ in very bad condition but difficult to convert them to other religion, it is only because of castism untouchables, harijans all those have no social status in their religion they also want respect so they go for the other religion

Similar thing happened in a vilage in Jaipur (India) 100 muslims were converted to hindu by people of RSSS . It was not a forced conversion, they converted because they were not getting any social status by the moslims as they were practising some of the things which were against Islam.
 
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When people like pakka(who is from IIT D) says things like Hindus suffered a lot from muslims/christian then I really feel bad.
I will not say that Muslims also suffered a lot because of Hindus, it was always a common man who suffered whether he was muslim or hindu just because of some selfishly coward people.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
I will not say that Muslims also suffered a lot because of Hindus, it was always a common man who suffered whether he was muslim or hindu just because of some selfishly coward people.


Agree with you Sameer, only human suffers.
Problem with VHP & RSS is that, they are too agressive. Thats there biggest minus point.
Pakka Desi says that we need to impart education. Can he tell me how many place do we have "Saraswati Shishu Mandir Vidyalay". I have not seen it in any remote place. They are in cities or in towns, but not ther where they should be.
Here missionaries win over us, they reach there give food, money and buy people.
Other thing is money, they have get huge amount money from US and western powers.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


It easy to convert a hindu to other religion in comparison to muslim or christian, As you people are saying that it is due to economic reasons is wrong because you will find many of the moslims/christians/ in very bad condition but difficult to convert them to other religion


No one is offering money to them for conversion.


it is only because of castism untouchables, harijans all those have no social status in their religion they also want respect so they go for the other religion


It is available everywhere, its just that India become civilised long back and now its become part of it.
In Muslims, you must have heard this "Saiyaad Hai, Kureshi Thode Hee Hai."
Anyway main factor is money.
I have not scene any converted Christian who has not recieved money.
And beleieve me its money only becasue of which they think they are getting respect.
And you have given answer by themselves. They target uneducated, poor people.
I have given open offer, give me 100 million $, I will adopt your religion. No body will come to me and try to convince me. I am too expensive :roll:
You are saying my words only, you are also agree its not christian philosphy or they found something good in any other religion but its something more deaper than that.
What I want to say, why do you want anyone to convert?


Similar thing happened in a vilage in Jaipur (India) 100 muslims were converted to hindu by people of RSSS . It was not a forced conversion, they converted because they were not getting any social status by the moslims as they were practising some of the things which were against Islam.


I heard this also ....
Here I differ from RSS & VHP. As Hindu is not a religion at all. It is not bound to any book written by some prophet who claim it to bo God's word.
Who ever is living in India is Hindu.
Hindus were here when *Dharma* meaning was "good behaviour" not religion.
That time there were only Hindus and no other religion. So there is nothing like Hindu religion. Hindu was a society whose philosphy were adopted by people across whole todays south Asia, from Iraq to Java-Sumatara.
Now we are called Hindu because we still belong to that society. Muslims who are living in India are also Hindu becasue they live in same society.
But it can not be true for other countries, I mean who is living in US does not mean that he is christian because Chiristian/ Islam they are religion not society.
forget everything, can anyone give me one good f***ing reason, even if I belive in some other religions philosphy, why should I change my religion ?
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Something else interesting... All of you Indians complaining about the evil missionaries destroying your Indian culture (which I thought was secular? hmmm...) are not the ones who benefit from this aid. You are relatively rich and do not share in their problems. So while it may be convenient to take a high-and-mighty stance regarding "the poor people", what are you doing about improving their position in life? What, you give a few bucks a week to some charity? Probably not even that. As I said, if you were *really* interested in helping these people, you could. But that would require personal involvement with these "poor people" you keep speaking of, and from the rhetoric I am hearing, I'm far from convinced that their welfare is of any real concern of yours and that you could care less what happens to these people.
By the way, as to why missionaries come to your country to help out the needy.... I can't speak of all branches of Christianity, although I expect it is true, but Catholicism preaches that people should help the needy as Jesus did, and that includes doing missionary type work. So the reason they are doing this is that they believe in their religion (Christianity), and that religion dictates they help the needy. Christianity also dictates that believers should spread the word of Christ, so this is where the often baseless accusations of attempts at conversion come from. Missionaries are not always priests and therefore they cannot convert anybody (it takes a long time to become a Catholic and there are several steps and rituals that must be undertaken). I nkow a large number of the missionaries in India are Catholic, such as Mother Theresa was. So if you bothered to take the time to educate yourself, you would realize that at least Catholic missionaries sren't doing all that much conversion (not that it never happens, but it's a lengthy process). Further, Christianity/Catholicism dictates that you help people regardless of what their religious beliefs are, be they Hindu, Muslim or whatever, so claiming that they be converted first is laughable. The cold hard reality that you might not have the moral foundation to accept, is that some people help other people simply because it is the correct thing to do.
Again though, if you really want to help these people, you could. But that's not the reall issue, is it?
 
High Plains Drifter
Posts: 7289
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Whether I ask for help or not I will get help cause uncle Sam is out to help everyone
Uncle Sam, plesae wait for my call, please dont help me when I am not asking for it.
Thanks for your help but no thanks. When I will need help I will get back to you.


Relief programs and foreign aid sponsored by the US government are not the same thing.
And frankly, if I were interested in helping the poor, why would I consider you their spokesman? Relief programs mostly try to get food and medicine to people who can't get it for themselves. It seems quite arrogant on your part to refuse such basic needs to others because your own principles might be offended.
 
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Christianity/Catholicism dictates that you help people regardless of what their religious beliefs are, be they Hindu, Muslim or whatever,


Tell me which religion in the world says do not help others ?
 
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

forget everything, can anyone give me one good f***ing reason, even if I belive in some other religions philosphy, why should I change my religion ?


$ 100 million
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

Tell me which religion in the world says do not help others ?


Might I suggest you take the entire sentence next time so that you have my comment in the proper context. The claim has been made here by some that aid will only be given after conversion. This is of course ridiculous, and I was merely pointing that the religious beliefs of the person being helped are of no consequence, and therefore there is no need for conversion before receiving aid.
I also notice that several of you have been making wild claims as to the actions by these evil missionaries seeking to corrupt Indian culture. I also notice that you fail to substantiate any of them or provide any indication that the actions you attribute to them are taking place on any wide scale. It sounds more like you are buying into propaganda, and most likely there is ilttle if any truth behind your claims.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 92
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
These guys are funded by a company called Menard Polymers. It's an American company that manufactures rosaries. An average convert is estimated to buy 7 dollars worth of Menard Polymer products. These guys work on a commision basis. Each successful conversion earns them $1.89 , three chappathis and one langotty .
They collect millions of these chappathis and langottys and export them to the US. It is believed, these chappathis and langottys are used to support America's missile programme .
The opponents of these conversions are financed by Dhirubai And Co. This is an insurance company. Their main product is rape insurance for harijan women.

The missionaries want to give rice to harijan women and expect their soul (and $1.89) in return. The Pakka Desi types want to supply meat to harijan women and do not expect anything in return.
http://www.dalitstan.org/sena/samachar/khrbihhr.html
http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19990317/ige17103.html

So I support Pukka Desi.

However, I dont think Indian culture and Christianity are alien to one another. It's a part of Indian culture.
http://www.shelterbelt.com/KJ/khchristians.html

How little you know about India Mr. Pukka Desi.
[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Lalooprasad Yadav ]
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here is an interesting article about conversions.Some excerpts
http://media.isnet.org/antar/etc/ConversionEthics.html
"In short conversion activity is anti-secular. It does not tolerate the religious differences that must exist in a truly secular society but aims at eliminating them. The irony is that secular law provides the religious freedom that allows
conversion activity to go on. The very missionaries that once used colonial armies to promote their conversion agendas are
now maintaining them in the post-colonial era under the guise of freedom of religion. The very groups that denied or limited religious freedom when they were in power in the colonial era,
now use freedom of religion to keep those same missionary activities going! This is both ironical and hypocritical!"

Also here is what the "great" Pope says

"The Asia Synod will deal with the challenge for
evangelisation posed by the encounter with ancient religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. While expressing esteem for the elements of truth in these religions, the Church must make it
clear that Christ is the one mediator between God and man and the sole Redeemer of the world."
 
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1871
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


I also notice that several of you have been making wild claims as to the actions by these evil missionaries seeking to corrupt Indian culture.


Well as Laloo was saying that Indian Culture is a secular culture and It comprises Hindu/Muslim/Sikh and the people from many other religion so there is no threat to Indian culture by missionaries, but we are saying if you really want to help someone then why in the name of religion ? Why not as a human not as a muslim , Hindu or Christian or whatever


Might I suggest you take the entire sentence next time so that you have my comment in the proper context.


Might be my tone was wrong, the thing I like to say that as in christians it is part of the religion that you help others same is in Hinduism that you have to give Daan or Dakshina to the poors and in Muslims also that you have to give Khairat, Zakat or Fitra some percentage of yor income to the poors whether they are muslims or not.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Posts: 7289
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

Tell me which religion in the world says do not help others ?


I have a hard time imagining any religion that is altruistic at its core, but I can think of plenty of occasions where God's name is used to support the killing of non-believers. Historically speaking, Christianity and Islam are, I would guess, among the bloodiest.
The question is not whether one is or has been bloodier than the other, but rather which among us chooses to come to our senses and value humanity and life over cultural precepts.
For all the talk about Holy Land, it seems no land is so sacred that you can't stash a few guns and grenades in it, daring your opponent to destroy it. Given the choice between burning down an empty, centuries-old church and saving the life of any one person, I know what I would do.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
And frankly, if I were interested in helping the poor, why would I consider you their spokesman? Relief programs mostly try to get food and medicine to people who can't get it for themselves. It seems quite arrogant on your part to refuse such basic needs to others because your own principles might be offended.


ME, there is no problem in Charity or in recieving Aids .. OR if you want to help anyone.
But everyone has objection when they try to change their relegion after all these aids & charity.
I have one simple Que:
If they are out for helping poor and needy then why do they want to convert his relegion?
OR Jesus has said that after help ask him to join Christianity or in return of all these favors you ask his relegion ??
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 149
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Its not money/missionaries are the causes of conversion.Parent reason is sub human treatment given to downtrodden,'low caste' people in major parts of India even today.
According to Dr Ambedkar(Chairman of consitution of India and Social reformer)
1) what is called religion by Hindus is nothing but a multitude of commands and prohibitions.
2)It has deprived moral life of freedom.
3) The laws are unjust because they are not the same for one class as of another. Besides, the code is treated as final.
Thats why he converted to Buddhism with 50,000 followers in 1956.
See more about Ambedkar
The one who is really interested should his book Riddles of Hinduism
When he finished the book,no publisher was ready to publish it .After his death, one publisher dared to publish the book,RSS and its other 100s organizations made a large hue and cry,protested that 'it will cause social upheaval and disturb the 'tolerant' Hindu society.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]Something else interesting... All of you Indians complaining about the evil missionaries destroying your Indian culture ?


As I have told earlier, here Mother Mary wears Saree not Gown or what she wears in west.
So there is nothing like destroying Indian culture.
AW now Indian culture is Mix of Mugal, british and lot of other societies & religion.
And they all are part of Indian culture, they have mingled in Indian culture.
And the only reason is that, its so old that no one can chane it.


(which I thought was secular? hmmm...)


it is secular...


By the way, as to why missionaries come to your country to help out the needy.... I can't speak of all branches of Christianity, although I expect it is true, but Catholicism preaches that people should help the needy as Jesus did, and that includes doing missionary type work. So the reason they are doing this is that they believe in their religion (Christianity), and that religion dictates they help the needy. Christianity also dictates that believers should spread the word of Christ, so this is where the often baseless accusations of attempts at conversion come from. Missionaries are not always priests and therefore they cannot convert anybody (it takes a long time to become a Catholic and there are several steps and rituals that must be undertaken). I nkow a large number of the missionaries in India are Catholic, such as Mother Theresa was. So if you bothered to take the time to educate yourself, you would realize that at least Catholic missionaries sren't doing all that much conversion (not that it never happens, but it's a lengthy process).


You are just trying to save Catholics here..... why?? I dont know


Further, Christianity/Catholicism dictates that you help people regardless of what their religious beliefs are, be they Hindu, Muslim or whatever, so claiming that they be converted first is laughable.


You laugh a lot


The cold hard reality that you might not have the moral foundation to accept, is that some people help other people simply because it is the correct thing to do.


Please come India and be my guest, really I will love to be your host and break your all myths.
Final & last ....
Help others if you find pleasure in it. but please dont ask his faiths in return. He is so poor and so obliged that he will give you his soul too.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 67
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When I was studying my BE, I went to a church along with my dearest christian friends.
I don't know who was it may be father or some other invitee to the church, in his he was mentioned many times about conversion. At some time his speech was going like this
"... we have to convert this town, we have to convert this whole state, we have to convert this whole country. These people who believing in SATAN need enlightenment, only those who knows that Jesus is the only God who can show us a place in heaven will be saved in the final judgement day. All others who believe in this stones and statues will be punished on the final day. Final day is approaching us so quickly, so you have to act fact and as your turn convert atleast one person...."
It was going like this. Actually I couldn't transalate exactly but thats what he was saying. Continusly I visited three sundays but the type of preaching was going on. That is not what i was expecting, then I told my friends that I can not come to church.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
where is PAKKA DESI?.
pakka , i like to read your posts
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Posts: 7289
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
RK: But everyone has objection when they try to change their religion after all these aids & charity.
ME: Really? What if "your religion" thinks you suck? Let's your church excommunicates you because you've divorced, or refuses to bury a loved one that committed suicide on hallowed ground, or considers you untouchable? Are you required to observe the ways of that belief system? What if your belief system teaches you that being hungry and sick and at the mercy of others is God's will, and then some foreigners come around with clean water and medicine and simply say, "there's a better way"?
You're stuck on thinking of conversion as a form of cultural decimation. Fact of the matter is, if someone comes to you with a way of life that looks more secure, more peaceful, more enlightening than the one you're living, you might just jump on it.
RK: If they are out for helping poor and needy then why do they want to convert his relegion?
ME: Maybe they just want to share it. It's called proselytizing and is an accepted part of many religions, not just Christianity. Heavier forms of persuasion occur in the US as well as elsewhere, by the way, and I for one find it obnoxious, but not a threat to my culture. It's *part* of my culture, just not a part I like or pay much attention to.
RK: OR Jesus has said that after help ask him to join Christianity or in return of all these favors you ask his religion??
ME: Grab a Bible and read what he says for yourself. Go ahead, it won't hurt you...
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am not saying that the Hindu society is a perfect society. Yes, there are bad things like castism. And we are working on them.
I want my religion to evolve. I am dead against castism, dowry and things like that. I firmly believe that we should assimilate the good qualities from anywhere. So what Ambedkar said about Hinduism is correct. But he was wrong in coverting to Buddhism. Changing the religion will not change you. I would rather spend my life in improving Hinduism than converting to another religion.
But for the past 7-8 centuries, what is happening is a shock treatment from the muslims and christians. Due to the rulers and govervmental support, the Hindu folks are neglected. They were converted force fully. Even after independence, successive congress governments apeased minorities for the vote bank. So missionaries and muslims have had a very unfair advantage. I don't want that anymore. Of course, I am bound to support a party that is "apeasing" hindus. I have no other option.
Changing your religion will not rid you of the minus points that are prevalent in the society. This can be verified by looking at the way congregations are held at a Mosque or a Church (In India, that is). Lower cast converts (yes, Islam or Christianity may not support castism but it is there in India) are not allowed to sit on the front rows/benches. Then there is inherent sectionism in muslims: bohris, shias, sunnis etc. They don't even pray side by side let alone mary among each other. (Riots in Lucknow between Shias and Sunnis are an example)

For non-Indian:
It's like your H1B program. You don't really hate people who come through it, but you don't want this program because it is affecting your common folk. The same way it is here. We just don't want the missionaries and grants from the gulf (for madarasas) here. Period. What has happened in the past has happened. We can't change that. But we can prevent that from happening now. They are destroying the cultural fabric of India by propogating hatred against Hindus, calling them kafirs and worhippers of satan. They DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT, teach their folks/children to respect other religions and that is incresing the divide between different religions. We don't want that. They can keep their aid with them but just get out from my country.
We don't not have any grudge agains Muslims or Christians as long as they live and let us live peacefully. But unfortunately that is not happening in India. These communities have taken the Hindu tolerance for granted. We want them to just LEAVE US ALONE.
Michael Ernest: Your theory is correct in ideal situation. However, as I said before, situation in India is a LOT different. Tell me one thing, how would you feel if the priest of a Hindu temple in USA preaches hatred against Christians? What if Hindu folks in the US imbibe in their children that Christiantiy/Islam are things to be hated? It would be difficult for you to imagin that situation because it's just not in Hindus to do that. But you can definitely imagine a Mosque preaching such things. If you are not aware, Mosques of the US and UK are the biggest supporters and fund generators for the Al Quida. How do you feel about that? Whether you approve of them in the name of religious freedom or not, I don't know. But I do not.
History is witness that it is in our land and culture that multiple religions have born and enriched the life of peoples accross the subcontinent. Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism took birth in India and flourished alongside Hinduism. But Muslims and Christians just don't want to mix in the local culture. They are dividing my country. Can you imagine any other religion taking birth in Saudi Arabia?
The beauty if Hinduism is in being accomodative of a wide variety of people from the extreme north to the extreme south. Local customs in the north are widely different than in the south. But they are still hindus. It does not believe in the supremacy of one god over the other. There are Shaivyites (believers of Lord Shiva) and then there are Vaishnavites (Lost Vishnu). There are Kali (the godess of power) worshippers and then there are Ganesh (the one with a head of an elephant, god of knowledge). Some people worhip Ram (who was a human beign) while some are ardent followers of Hanuman, the monkey god.
You just can't fathom the diversity of people in India. And it is there for a reason. India is an old and vast country with an extremely long history of civilization. Different people have different needs and that has caused Hinduism to evolve. It has evolved to accomodate the needs of all. And it should keep evolving. This is the key and that's why I call every Indian, Hindu or non-Hindu, to understand this philosophy and to work for the betterment of our beautiful cultural heritage. For that to happen, we first need to kick out the people who are driving a wedge between the hearts of the people. Britishers did that successfully and ruled over us. Don't let that to happen again.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
{
ME: Really? What if "your religion" thinks you suck? Let's your church excommunicates you because you've divorced, or refuses to bury a loved one that committed suicide on hallowed ground, or considers you untouchable? Are you required to observe the ways of that belief system? What if your belief system teaches you that being hungry and sick and at the mercy of others is God's will, and then some foreigners come around with clean water and medicine and simply say, "there's a better way"?
ME: Grab a Bible and read what he says for yourself. Go ahead, it won't hurt you...
}

I know this is not addressed to me, but anyway.
Can I make the same argument and ask you to grab a Hindu book, the Gita and read what it says.It dosent hurt anybody to read the book. There are various Hindu sites too on the net.Nowhere does it say anything about burial or divorce.
As long as you believe that there are many ways to reach God you are a Hindu. When you say that Christianity or Islam is the only way to reach God you go against the Hindu belief system.
The world would be better off without any religion including Hinduism, but then that is a different discussion.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally spewed by Pakka Desi:
blah blah blah blah


Hitler or bin Laden couldn't have said it much better.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Hitler or bin Laden couldn't have said it much better.


Of course, anybody who does not agree with you is either Hitler or Bin laden.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
And if neither, then definitely a terrorist who want's to blow your guts off.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
{
You're stuck on thinking of conversion as a form of cultural decimation. Fact of the matter is, if someone comes to you with a way of life that looks more secure, more peaceful, more enlightening than the one you're living, you might just jump on it.
}
Forced conversion to another religion like Christianity is a form of cultural decimation. Because it asks you to denigrate your own culture and land and asks you to swear allegiance to the Pope,Vatican and other strange sounding places like Bethlehem.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Forced conversion to another religion like Christianity is a form of cultural decimation. Because it asks you to denigrate your own culture and land and asks you to swear allegiance to the Pope,Vatican and other strange sounding places like Bethlehem.


Your ignorance of these religions is staggering. Ignorance is what causes problems and hatred like you are preaching. Try ot actually educate yourself about that which you speak, because it is very obvious you haven't. Further, if you are going to make claims about all these things Christianity is supposedly doing in your country systematically and on a wide scale, at least attempt to provide some reference to back yourself up. Because really you people are coming off sounding very similar to Nazis, Muslim extremists, and other supremacist movements.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Your ignorance of these religions is staggering. Ignorance is what causes problems and hatred like you are preaching. Try ot actually educate yourself about that which you speak, because it is very obvious you haven't. Further, if you are going to make claims about all these things Christianity is supposedly doing in your country systematically and on a wide scale, at least attempt to provide some reference to back yourself up. Because really you people are coming off sounding very similar to Nazis, Muslim extremists, and other supremacist movements.


Or may be you are ignorant about what goes on in India?
These religion may preach peace and what not in US. We only know what they preach in India and that is what we are against.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

Or may be you are ignorant about what goes on in India?
These religion may preach peace and what not in US. We only know what they preach in India and that is what we are against.


So you keep saying. So show us some evidence to back up your claims of these wide scale and systemic activities that are supposedly taking place in the name of Christianity. I have requested it numerous times and you have yet to furnish any. In the absense of any evidence, it seems to be merely the exagerations of a supremacist.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

Of course, anybody who does not agree with you is either Hitler or Bin laden.


Umm no... Anyone who blames their problems on or otherwise demonizes another race/religion/culture, anyone who preaches hatred and intolerance against another race/religion/culture, and anyone who supports violence perpetrated against another race/religion/culture certainly shares qualities with Hitler, bin Laden, and the others in their mold.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

So you keep saying. So show us some evidence to back up your claims of these wide scale and systemic activities that are supposedly taking place in the name of Christianity. I have requested it numerous times and you have yet to furnish any. In the absense of any evidence, it seems to be merely the exagerations of a supremacist.


Go to India, attend a couple of masses in different places and you'll know for sure. I don't have any other proof that you will possibly accept in your court
In any case, my task is not to convince you or to prove it to you. If you don't believe, don't accept, or don't understand, that's your problem. If you want, put some efforts to find out the truth. My task is to convince my fellow countrymen. I am not asking them to follow me or believe me blindfolded. They can easily verify my claims, just the way I did it for myself. I have lived in 5 states in India, from New Delhi to Tamilnadu and I have the first hand information about this.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
I don't have any other proof


Exactly.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 37
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jason Menard: Might I suggest you take the entire sentence next time so that you have my comment in the proper context
Pakka Desi: I don't have any other proof that you will possibly accept in your court
Jason Menard (while quoting Pakka Desi): I don't have any other proof
The first sentence (quoted by you)....isn't it applicable to you Jason?
[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: M Suguna ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 126
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

They can easily verify my claims, just the way I did it for myself. I have lived in 5 states in India, from New Delhi to Tamilnadu and I have the first hand information about this.


May be there are conversions in South India but I have not seen or heard (ever) of any conversions in UP or anywhere in north India for that matter. That is why when I read about strong anti conversion arguments I am not convinced. Can you give us Indians any example where mass faith conversion has been held in North India?
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Christians amount to less than 2.5% of the population of India. With all the other problems in India I think you can find something more serious to worry about. :roll:


It has been shown throughout history that a majority of a nation often demonizes a minority and places the blame for all of societies ills on their shoulders. This has the affect of giving the gullible population a target against which they may direct their anger towards, as opposed to directing their anger towards the rulers of the country where the blame often lies. Germany in the 1930's-40's is the most popular example of this, although this is happening in many Muslim countries as well.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Christians amount to less than 2.5% of the population of India. With all the other problems in India I think you can find something more serious to worry about. :roll:


I never said there are no other problems. We definitely have to work on them and we are.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Posts: 7289
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
S: Can I make the same argument and ask you to grab a Hindu book, the Gita and read what it says.It dosent hurt anybody to read the book. There are various Hindu sites too on the net. Nowhere does it say anything about burial or divorce.
ME: I imagine it does not. The religious practice I was raised in does, or did. I don't need to look to the problems of Hinduism to find problems with religious practice; the culture I was raised in has plenty of its own, as far as I'm concerned. I would also guess what's written in the Gita says nothing about treating some people like s***, but such practices are kept in the name of Hinduism, anyway, aren't they? It hardly matters what the specifics are.
S: As long as you believe that there are many ways to reach God you are a Hindu. When you say that Christianity or Islam is the only way to reach God you go against the Hindu belief system.
ME: I believe there are many ways to reach God, but I can't imagine being a Hindu without knowing the first thing about Hinduism. I'll check out the Gita some time, but it's not like I'm looking for answers.
S: The world would be better off without any religion including Hinduism, but then that is a different discussion.
ME: I go back and forth on that one myself. I think faith is important, but the practices that turn faith into cultural mores and "accepted" beliefs seem to me neither good nor bad. They just are what they are.
[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
Prasad Charasala
Ranch Hand
Posts: 67
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like this


As long as you believe that there are many ways to reach God you are a Hindu.


This is what Java religion tells us against Microsoft religion, right?
I have seen "Jesus is the only God. One servent can not have two bosses" slogans on church walls in my town.
Hindu has no problem in accepting Jesus as one of the incarnations of the God but the problem lies in the conversions of missionaries.
Hindu never hates christian but hates conversion.
 
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand
Posts: 177
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We do not want promoting hatred in the name of freedom.
 
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic