[Political]Post-war Iraq

[Manav Mitra]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Regarding the analogies used by yourself and Map... A document about fallacies for your reading pleasure.

I was hoping that my sarcasm won't be misinterpret, that's why I added lines in my next post immediately. But didn't help.. sigh.. I'll try again -
I have read those fallacies now, and I think my argument is being tested for "instanceof" following 2 fallacies -
1) false analogy
2) proof by sarcasm
So I'll try to explain it's neither! (it's not straw man stuff!!)
I accept that the story I narrated indeed was an analogy, but not a false analogy. And what's wrong with an analogy? I think, it helps understanding things better. Can we really not see the similarity between my story and the attacks? If we cannot see the similarities, then my argument is null and void. I have nothing more to say!
How often do we use analogy to explain a technical concept? Doesn't it help in understanding the unknown concept/situation better? As Grady Booch explains about knowledge classification, we tend to associate an unknown object or situation with a similar known object or situation to help us comprehend better. Seems to be a good enough approach to me for arguments/discussions as well.
As for sarcasm, I did give my justification before, it was meant to drive home the point. Consider this -
You meet a fresher from college, and he tells you - "A fresher with Java certification can easily get a job in US and make 75K/year!!" How would you react, especially when this is 'n' th time he is saying that and wants you to believe him when facts say something else?
Sarcasm exaggerates, it might hurt as well, but it brings out facts to the light like nothing else can ever do. You'd know what I mean if you can enjoy caricature!!!
Enough about these 2 points, more later...

[Manav Mitra]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
US believes in mind your own business. US looks the other way on all sorts of wrongdoing by despots and corrupt regimes about the world. Some say the reason US meddles in Iraq and ignores Africa is because it is all over oil.
Oil gave SH an ability to attack the US. SH had the money to do more than deliver truck bombs, suicide bombers, or hijack airliners.
When faced with an adversary that has the capability and the will to inflict horrific actions against any entity that denies it its greed to control all the gulf, can the US wait and retalilate after a smoking gun has been left on the US's soil?
The $200 Billion that gulf war 2 is going to cost the US is a debt the US can hardly afford. The US would much rather spend it on so many other things. But $200 Billion to clean up Iraq looks cheap in comparison to the cost of cleaning up a strike by Iraq on the US.
The US does not want to be the world's policeman. It's a burden the US shoulders because US cannot afford not to. As the only superpower the US inherited the responsibily of bring law and order to Iraq from the failed Ottoman empire.
US course of action will tower above past examples of conquering powers in the justice it brings to Iraq. Even in 1860 no country could end slavery in the US. No coalition was formed. Then, as now, so much of the world is so pitifully apathetic.

Oh boy! It's difficult to curb sarcasm after reading statements like that.
Is this justice same as the justice I intended to bring to the girl I was talking about in my story? Did they ask US to do that? If they couldn't have, did US get the consent from rest of the world?
I think US feels omnipotent and strangely self-righteous to decide it for themselves that they need to "punish" someone. They are the ones who accuse, they are ones who judge and then they pass verdict ad execute it. Great!!! Again, let me re-iterate that I am not saying that Iraq was not suffering because of sadaaam, they sure were, but this is no way to solve the "problem" for them. After all, it's not SH that you'd be killing (God knows if he's still alive or...), you are in fact attacking Iraq, destroying their nation and killinkg their people for their own good. That's where the world has problems and protests. If he's that intolerable for the locals there, *they* will get rid of him. History produced so many rebels & revolutions when people were opressed, and when those people rebel and ask for help then US or others can always offer help
Also, on one hand you say that the US does not want to be the world's policeman, and then you say it's america's (self-proclaimed) responsibility of brining law and order to Iraq, it's a burden the US shoulder!
What burden is this, same as the white man's burden?
What a justification?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Your analogy involves a 17 year old female and an older male, her father. In the US we do not tolerate the subjugation of women. We have seen the outcome of no action. We have seen the outcome of intrevention.
We know that India sujugates women and people in lower castes. We know India posses WMD. At the monent we don't think India is led by an irresponsible government with the intent aid and abet those intent on attacking the US.
In time we believe India will be a country where all people have equal right. So we are not going to forcefully liberate anybody.
The taxpayers and citizens of the US have created a government and empowered it with means to defend ourselves. The president with the approval of the congress has done that. We feel it is the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself.
Being a people with limited resources and a knowledge of history, we do not want to find ourselves again in Iraq in ( 1941 - 1918 ) 20 years. So we are going to attempt to build a nation that we find not to be beligerant. We hope to create a force of good.
It is one shrinking planet, cancer left unchecked spreads. In time you say Iraq will come about. We are not a waiting people ( 1776 - 1948 ).

[R K Singh]

We know that India sujugates women and people in lower castes.
And we know what does racist mean and what does black and white mean
We feel it is the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself.
How do you feel, one country/nation defends itself?
With my poor knowledge, I think arms and ammunitions are used for defence.
And who is going to decide who should posses what weapons?
IMDO at least it should be a body which consist more than one nation, I think which is already here by the name of UN.
Please check some previous thread where it is evident that US could not prove anything to the world for his attack ?
OR US could not prove his action's legitimacy?
we don't think India .....
Who the hell has given you right to think about India
Its better US think abt only itself, believe me all of US problem will solve.
There is saying Hindi:
Kisi Ke Phate Mein Taang Nahi Aadani Chaiye.
In english you can say.
Dont poke your nose in others affairs.

[John Lee]

i have been interested in this for a while: what kind of last name reflects lower castes, what about higher castes?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Don Liu:
i have been interested in this for a while: what kind of last name reflects lower castes, what about higher castes?

Now last name does not refelect caste of a person. Anyone can have anything as sir name.
To know a caste of person you have to go in to slight more details like family name[Vansh], Gotra[name of Guru/Rishi] etc....
Its complicated, chinese mind wont be able to understand [kidding]
AW all these things are moving out of fashion....

[John Lee]

thanks for the informations!

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
And we know what does racist mean and what does black and white mean

Based on this and other postings, you appear to view this place as a nation where racial and religious hatred runs rampant. Let me put this to rest for hopefully the final time, you are wrong. So please stop making these erroneous accusations. Thank you.
IMDO at least it should be a body which consist more than one nation, I think which is already here by the name of UN.
If you want to talk about the UN, I believe the UN charter re-iterates the inherant rights of sovereign nations to defend themselves. The UN had already decided it did not want Iraq to have these weapons. It is about to put Iran and North Korea on notice about their weapons programs. Stay tuned on that one.
It is not merely possessing such weapons which is a problem, it is what one does with such weapons. Iraq was one of the largest state sponsors of international terrorism, and Iran is one of the largest state sponsorts of international terrorism. They are rogue nations operating outside of international norms as established by the UN and other nations. They have shown a willingess to conduct certain activities. Therefore the fact that they may possess certain weapons is more of an issue than say India possessing such weapons. Similarly with North Korea, who is one of the world's largest proliferators, as I would think India would be all to aware. They will sell any weapon in their possession to anybody who will buy it. These nations are (or were in the case of Iraq) clear threats. The UN even has come to the same conclusions about these nations. Unfortunately the UN has no will to enforce its resolutions, and if it is a matter of our own defense, we will not hesitate to enforce them ourselves.
Please check some previous thread where it is evident that US could not prove anything to the world for his attack ?
OR US could not prove his action's legitimacy?
The legitimacy was and has been provided by the UN in various UN resolutions including the most recent one concerning Iraq. The legitimacy has been provided by the mass graves uncovered. The legitmacy has been provided by the vast majority of people who cheered us at their liberation (the exception of course being mainly those who thrived under Saddam's rule). The legitmacy has been provided by the terrorists we have apprehended in Iraq. The legitmacy has been provided by the prohibited items we have found such as the mobile biological warfare labs.
As far as proving anything to the world, we do not need to provide proof to anybody in order to protect our national security.
Who the hell has given you right to think about India
:roll:
Its better US think abt only itself, believe me all of US problem will solve.
What makes you think we aren't worrying about our best interests? However most of our problems would be solved if others in the world would start taking some measure of responsibility.
Dont poke your nose in others affairs.
Weak and despotic nations have often made that plea. However as long as their affairs concern us, we protect our interests.
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Paul Stevens]

Jason,
You missed the terrosist training camp(s) discovered. The missiles capable of going over 600 miles. The mobile labs.

But besides that what proof do have. This all sounds like a Monty Python skit.

[Jason Menard]

You're right Paul, we can't forget those. And it does kinda sound like a Monty Python skit.
(I added the labs on an edit subsequent to Paul's post if anyone is wondering.)

[R K Singh]

Let me put this to rest for hopefully the final time, you are wrong. So please stop making these erroneous accusations. Thank you.

Thanks for your thought.
I will have view what I read/see.
https://coderanch.com/t/38573/md/wrong-or-it-allright
Its always can be said that it does not reflect majority.
I have to give this thread as you dont believe anything till you see. There is one more thread which I am not able to find right now.
That thread was discussing this problem only.
No US ppl said anything against the topic.
What do you think, what picture I have ?? :roll:

The UN had already decided it did not want Iraq to have these weapons.
Then let UN do his job.

Iraq was one of the largest state sponsors of international terrorism, and Iran is one of the largest state sponsorts of international terrorism.
We have discussed it 100 times. But none of your link proves it.
The UN even has come to the same conclusions about these nations.
Very good, looks like US has hopes in UN.
Unfortunately the UN has no will to enforce its resolutions, and if it is a matter of our own defense, we will not hesitate to enforce them ourselves.

Alas US does not beleive in UN still.

The legitmacy has been provided by the vast majority of people who cheered us at their liberation
ANd week after came out on streets with banner saying go back to your land.
The legitmacy has been provided by the prohibited items we have found such as the mobile biological warfare labs.
If I am not wrong , only one such, so called, mobile biological warfare lab is found till and FYI, which I am very much sure will be aware that, that mobile lab CAN produce chemical weapon but is mainly for fertilizer production.
As far as proving anything to the world, we do not need to provide proof to anybody in order to protect our national security.
I have said earlier then US should not expect anything form the others.
Who the hell has given you right to think about India
:roll:
Even I want to rolleyes ??

However most of our problems would be solved if others in the world would start taking some measure of responsibility.
I think its UN jobs.
Dont poke your nose in others affairs.
Weak and despotic nations have often made that plea.
Dont know laugh or cry.
First you are saying WEAK, and then think that US can have problem from weak nations.
Regarding dictatorship, IMO no one should try to be parent of someone's else child.
dont want to hijack so replying here only:

You missed the terrosist training camp(s) discovered. The missiles capable of going over 600 miles. The mobile labs

We have already discussed it in detail.
Now I dont want to repeat myself.
AW as I have said earlier, what one gives, same thing gets back in return.
AW I am off. Please continue Post-war Iraq discussion.
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[R K Singh]

We know that India sujugates women and people in lower castes.
Oh sorry.. looks like, instead of saying things in black & white I should have asked "What makes you think like this ??"
I think I have already given data, how much castesim is in India now. Please search and find by themselves.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Based on this and other postings, you appear to view this place as a nation where racial and religious hatred runs rampant. Let me put this to rest for hopefully the final time, you are wrong. So please stop making these erroneous accusations. Thank you.

Its a joke but still please clear me.
I want to put smiley after "please clear me".
But I am not putting.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
I will have view what I read/see.

Feel free to believe whatever you'd like I guess, I see little point in trying to convince otherwise. If you were really interested in the truth though, you could always ask your contrymen who actually live here (Sriraj Rajaram and Pakka Desi come to mind) what things are really like, as it seems all the natives here telling you otherwise makes little difference.

[R K Singh]

Here is what I was just chating on %%%%%%:
======================================
###### (12:55:12 AM): abey main ab development nahin karta
###### (12:55:25 AM): sirf integration and deployment
###### (12:55:33 AM): and release managemnet
ravish (12:56:37 AM): Manager Hai Kyoun Nahi Bolta ..
ravish (12:56:46 AM): cig Pee Kar Aata Hoon .
###### (12:56:56 AM): ok
ravish (12:57:22 AM): Chal Raha Hai .. one cig at a time
###### (12:57:48 AM): sahi hai
###### (12:57:59 AM): suna tujhe ishk ho gaya
ravish (12:58:53 AM): hahahahahahaa
ravish (12:59:24 AM): cig pee kar Aata Hoon .. Tab Batana Mujhe Kisse Isha Hua Hai
###### (12:59:33 AM): ok
###### (12:59:41 AM): ping me when you are back
ravish (1:03:33 AM): ping pong
ravish (1:03:49 AM): Oye ... serious question first
###### (1:03:55 AM): ok
ravish (1:04:12 AM): What lafda is there in US between Black & White ??
ravish (1:04:24 AM): means black peoplle and white??
###### (1:04:24 AM): nothing why?
ravish (1:04:34 AM): just asking ..
###### (1:04:42 AM): blacks were slaves first
###### (1:04:59 AM): then after the civil war slavery was abolished in US
###### (1:05:18 AM): but they were always treated as lower than whites
ravish (1:05:19 AM): and now .. what does racist mean ??
###### (1:05:36 AM): that a white person hates colored people
ravish (1:05:50 AM): is it still there ??
ravish (1:06:10 AM): still means today also ..
###### (1:06:16 AM): yeah goto the southern part of the country
###### (1:06:53 AM): suburban texas
###### (1:07:02 AM): and all those areas
ravish (1:07:09 AM): else ...
###### (1:07:25 AM): all those nearby states down there
ravish (1:07:49 AM): Abey Texas is in North .. Upper Hai Ya Neeche Hai ??
###### (1:08:42 AM): texas is in south near mexico?
ravish (1:09:12 AM): looks like i saw some other state .. Angreze Mein Likha Tha
###### (1:09:37 AM): oh ok
ravish (1:10:55 AM): I was just discussing with someone .. I was in knowledge that still there is lafda of balck & white ..
###### (1:11:13 AM): yes there is
###### (1:11:25 AM): but they all hate the browns
###### (1:16:41 AM): bas aisa hi hai
ravish (1:17:12 AM): https://coderanch.com/t/38671/md/Political-Post-war-Iraq
###### (1:17:32 AM): what is that?
ravish (1:17:36 AM): thats why I was asking ..
ravish (1:17:55 AM): nothing just discussion board ... for Java ..
###### (1:18:24 AM): i see
ravish (1:18:40 AM): you got the page ??
###### (1:19:06 AM): yes
ravish (1:19:26 AM): Toh Kya Pada ?
###### (1:20:19 AM): padha nahin yaar just breifed thru manavs message
ravish (1:21:24 AM): Jason said : If you were really interested in the truth though, you could always ask your contrymen who actually live here
ravish (1:21:36 AM): So I thought who will be better than you ..
###### (1:21:50 AM): hahaha
ravish (1:22:08 AM): and your answre is : ###### (1:11:13 AM): yes there is
ravish (1:22:17 AM): so now i even more confuse ..
ravish (1:24:55 AM): Apne Ye chat Tera Naam Hata Kar post Kar Do...
###### (1:25:58 AM): nahin re
###### (1:26:04 AM): i don't want to
ravish (1:26:17 AM): but I will edit your name ..
###### (1:26:28 AM): as you wish
ravish (1:26:50 AM): why did you say NO ??
###### (1:28:46 AM): my views are my views and my conjuctures are mine i understan the world from my perspective and i don't share it with others whom i don't know
ravish (1:29:41 AM): OK .. you are not sharing your views .. blame it on Thakur .... Jaban Par Aa Gayee Hai ..
ravish (1:29:47 AM): I am posting ...
###### (1:30:31 AM): as you wish
###### (1:35:48 AM): did you really post it?
ravish (1:36:02 AM): hahahahahhahaa
ravish (1:36:13 AM): Toh Kya Main Majak Kar Raha Tha ...
ravish (1:36:42 AM): Kyuon Phat Gayee ..
ravish (1:36:50 AM):
###### (1:36:50 AM): tu kabhi nahin sudhrega
ravish (1:37:23 AM): Post Karon Ya Na Karon .. tell me Y/N .. that will be final ..
###### (1:37:48 AM): it's not even related to the discussion
ravish (1:38:37 AM): now thing is .. whether still there are racist or not ... ?
ravish (1:39:30 AM): if you say YES then its there . if you say NO then its not there ..
###### (1:39:33 AM): oh there are
###### (1:39:55 AM): you get those news every now and then on the news channels
###### (1:40:32 AM): there would be so many court cases out there
###### (1:40:47 AM): even about police brutality against blacks
ravish (1:41:01 AM): Now tell me shall I post Y/N [after editing like this : ######: yeah goto the southern part of the country]
###### (1:42:19 AM): Y
###### (1:42:25 AM): go ahead
ravish (1:43:59 AM): Yes sir ..
###### (1:44:58 AM):
###### (1:49:12 AM): good you didn't post it
ravish (1:49:24 AM): hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah
ravish (1:49:39 AM): you checked it .. then why did you say YES ??
ravish (1:49:44 AM):
###### (1:50:31 AM): be back after a smoke lets get to matters closer at home who is this ^^^^^^^^
ravish (1:50:50 AM): tell me should I post or not .. ??
###### (1:53:12 AM): go ahead i'll be back after a smoke
ravish (1:53:41 AM): hahahahaha
ravish (1:55:07 AM): Ok I will give you company ..

======================================
PS: this is not my %%%%%Id. I have changed it before posting here.
I think most of the conversation is in english.
Its his view. It might be very much wrong.
I understand it cant be generalised.
I understand that most people are not like what he is mentioning.
Even Sriraj has mentioned one story of shop keeper.
I am not saying that everyone is racist.
I understand and wish that most of the people are nice like you.... but still ....
I understand neither I represent India nor you represent US.
Its our views only.
AW I back to work.. ..
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Hmmm... So, for example, if you do not hear any single good word about black people from somebody, but hear a lot of how they are lazy, on welfare, criminals etc. does it make this person racist? He would probably never claim that ALL blacks are lazy, criminals etc., but these are somehow all he pays attention to...

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Hmmm...

ravish (1:04:12 AM): What lafda is there in US between Black & White ??
ravish (1:04:24 AM): means black peoplle and white??
###### (1:04:24 AM): nothing why?
His first answer was NO.
I also know its not to the extend, everyone else is taking.
Even I cant say that there is no casteism in India 100% .

[Axel Janssen]

actually there are black americans who are successful in business (like for example Ed Zoller, chief manager of Lotus) and other sectors.
To make statement like blacks have no opportunities is simplifying like if I would say something about reality of indian cast systems (have no idea about that) or one of you about relationship between germans and jews.
All this things which work inside our societys, be it India, Germany, USA or Russia is often complex and could be easily understood the wrong way by people from other countries.
amen
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Jason Menard]

but they all hate the browns
:roll:
Well, I'm glad both you and he were around to tell me how things really are. And all this time I've had the wrong idea. Despite the fact that I've lived here for 32+ years in all different parts of the country, I've been blind. How could I have missed it? I'm glad you guys were here to shed some light on things. Now excuse me, I'm off to read about the widespread burning of Muslims and Christians in other parts of the world. :roll:
(Btw, I specifically mentioned Pakka Desi and Sriraj Rajaram because after reading their messages over time, I trust that they are able to deliver a knowledgable and accurate assessment, and just as importantly we can verify the source.)
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Mapraputa Is]

To be honest, it was Rufus who mentioned that India "sujugates women and people in lower castes" (while discussing America's mission in Iraq). Then Ravish exercises his legitimate right for self-defense, and brought out "racism" thing.
Jason, if you aren't too mad already still what do you think about Soviet invasion in Afghanistan? As far as I remember, it was also explained by "security" needs. (no provocation intended, just curious...)
--------------------
"I have no nationality - the best possible status for an intellectual."
Emil Cioran

[R K Singh]

If it pinches you talking abt racism. Then it pinches me if someone talk abt castism.
Can you tell me the relevance of this quote here ?
===========
We know that India sujugates women and people in lower castes. We know India posses WMD. At the monent we don't think India is led by an irresponsible government with the intent aid and abet those intent on attacking the US.
===========
[Doh! Moderator Blunder! I meant to respond to Ravish's post and instead hit the edit button, submitting afterwards. Hopefully I've resored it to its original form. In any case, my appologies! -Jason]
[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
To be honest, it was Rufus who mentioned that India "sujugates women and people in lower castes" (while discussing America's mission in Iraq). Then Ravish exercises his legitimate right for self-defense, and brought out "racism" thing.

If somebody has knowledge that Rufus has made idiotic statements on a particular subject that they believe he is clueless about, with little basis in fact, they may feel free to point it out to him. I am in no position to comment on the veracity of Rufus' statements on the subject, and it would be stupid and presumptuous of me to claim otherwise. You see where this is going?
still what do you think about Soviet invasion in Afghanistan? As far as I remember, it was also explained by "security" needs.
I'm beginning to think it was a good idea. However our primary doctrine of the time that we oppose the USSR at any turn necessitated that we try to subvert it. The outcome for us was at the same time ultimately positive and negative. Positive in that a defeat was dealt to the Soviets which in some part lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union, and negative in that in some part we helped foster conditions in which radical Islam could thrive (although we by no means caused radical Islam).

[Paul McKenna]

[The King Has Made His Entrance...] All Rise!!!
Ravish:
1. I mentioned the shopkeeper incident to find out why that person felt that way. My intention was never to state that all white people are racists and that they always look down upon the non-whites. My intention was to find out why that person felt that way.. and what better way to find out than from a group of other white people.
2. In my experience I've noticed that Indians can be just as much racist as White people. If you come here you will notice how Indians talk about African Americans. They assume that compared to african americans they are much much superior and often make derogatory comments about them. And I'm not exaggerating. When I moved from Connecticut to Maryland, for a while I felt I definetly needed to go back (Maryland has 30% African American population, Connecticut has 5%) But the important thing is that I realized my thoughts were wrong and now I live in an apartment complex where 75% of the residents are African Americans and I am very very happy. Prior to this I lived with a white family for over 1.5 years in Connecticut. The problem is not people but the stereotypes that are projected. After analysis I found that my fears were only because of the stereotype image of a black person in my mind, i.e. criminal, drug dealer etc. It is important not to let such stereotypes form our opinions.. Through the means of this forum or media you will never get to know the truth. You have to meet them in person to know what its like. Do you also know that during Jan 2002 a bunch of my friends were pelted with stones because a group of people thought they were Arabs.. who were those people?? African Americans and Hispanics.. not a single white person. It was a white police officer who came and broke up that crowd. My buddy Jason is a White and I definetly dont see him as a white when I am around him. Color plays an important part when you are a victim. When I was a victim, I noticed the factor that helped created a criminal image of that shopkeeper in my mind.. namely skin color.
3. But I'll also grant you that when I first came to the US I was very scared. I had very much the same presentiments that you exhibit through your posts about White people. I rarely mingled with them and preffered to keep to myself. Over time these faded and now I have a more diverse set of friends here. Mainly whites, followed by Indians and African Americans and Hispanics too.
Hope this helps..
P.S-
I did feel that you should not have made the statement "Who are you to think about India". The purpose of a discussion forum is not to question who has the the right to think about what but who is right and who is wrong. Silencing the opposition or the inquistive is not good conversation

[R K Singh]

My intention was never to state that all white people are racists and that they always look down upon the non-whites.

Did I say this ??
I did feel that you should not have made the statement "Who are you to think about India".
Agree with you.
But see the context for which I have said this.
:roll:
For quick ref I C&P here
==========
At the monent we don't think India is led by an irresponsible government with the intent aid and abet those intent on attacking the US.
==========
If this is quote then I will repeat myself.
Who has given right to think about India.
Who is this WE ??
Who is going to decide whether Govt is irresponsible or not ?

[Paul McKenna]

Ravish
I see where you're coming from.. you're trying to ask Rufus what gives Americans the right to make decisions about other countries. Fair enough!! But the way you stated it definetly didnt seem that way... just like how I concluded you were implying that all White Americans are racists..
And in my reply it seemed to you that I was accusing you of generalizing all White Americans as racists.. my mistake! So net result we all have to be careful about how we phrase our thoughts in words.
You remark questioning Rufus's statement might be easily mistaken for arrogance. While in reality, I presume, you were trying to draw a discussion on a more important topic. So lets just be more careful on how we word our statements/ questions

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I'm beginning to think it was a good idea. However our primary doctrine of the time that we oppose the USSR at any turn necessitated that we try to subvert it. The outcome for us was at the same time ultimately positive and negative. Positive in that a defeat was dealt to the Soviets which in some part lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union, and negative in that in some part we helped foster conditions in which radical Islam could thrive (although we by no means caused radical Islam).

To the contrary, I feel a Soviet invasion of the Arab world would have been very very favourable to US in the long run. IMHO, Russia was never really a threat to US. Their attitude was if the West leaves us alone, we'll leave them alone (Compared to the arab fanatics who say.. if I die.. you die too). But the hype and the hoopla that surrounded Communism in the 50s created a ruckus of a relationship between the West and Russia. I am expecting Jason or Thomas to bring up the example of Cuba to counter the above statement.. but in retrospect it is my opinion that Cuba wouldnt have occurred if not for the Korean war.. which in turn took place because of the fear of spread of communism.
Imagine if Communism had prevailed in the Arab world.. they would have been introduced to Atheism.. which in turn would have been extremely favourable to the West. Communism anyway collapsed on its own, but its better principles(atheism) are still in practise. (Better when compared to the fanaticism that exists in that part of the world today!)

[Rufus BugleWeed]

If you follow this board, you will see participants with what look like Indian names claiming one of the things they like about the US is there is no castism. Perhaps it is a fallacy to think that people who applaud its absence know not of its existence?
I don't think anyone will deny India's possesion of nuclear weapons.
My knowledge of India is growing, but is limited. I suspect the British played a part in the erradication of castism. While the affected parties were offended by the act of an outside liberator, in the long term will history condemn the British for there action. IMO, no.
If memory serves me both Manav and Map have taken this tact that people resent outside interference in the internal affairs of a country. I stand by my assertion that root cause of trouble in Iraq is that Iraq as a nation does not posses the maturity to manage its new found wealth. In days gone by the conquering power never let a nation like Iraq have free will. But colonialism is rape and colonialist are evil was the call.
Now we see the pendulum swing to the other extreme. Whannabi preach non Whannabi are infidels. Iraq, in bold arrogance, tells the world to FO. Iranians sieze an embassy, hold hostages and flaunt centuries of diplomatic tradition. Did I miss a corner on the gulf?
Stepping in and stopping the father from abusing the daughter has time and again be proven to be the mature act. Failure to act because the father and the daughter are going to, in the short run, resent your act, is IMO short sighted and negligent.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
My knowledge of India is growing, but is limited.

Glad to know that you are taking interest in India. (Hoping not to sound too critical here..) I have noticed in the past that you tend to focus on the negative aspects of Indian civilization and thus form your opinions about the subcontinent. Every culture has its bad aspects.. and if you really want to learn about India I'd suggest that you read about some of the better aspects of Indian civilization and culture (the bad aspects will always anyway receive publicity..). I'd be more than happy to provide you with a few links if required.

I suspect the British played a part in the erradication of castism. While the affected parties were offended by the act of an outside liberator, in the long term will history condemn the British for there action. IMO, no.

Likewise, the terrorist attacks of 9/11 united all Americans. Black, White, Brown, Red.. all felt the impact and were suddenly experiencing a common feeling. A feeling of being victimized. In this feeling, they found unity and strength to throw off the offender easily. To say that Americans must thank the terrorists for bringing about unity is incorrect in my opinion. Likewise, the British made all of India a victim. Caste was irrelevant to the British, just like skin color, national origin or race was irrelevant to the 9/11 terrorists.

[Manav Mitra]

I'll add more replies later, but just few quick clarifications -
1. Speaking for myself, I was *not* referring to racism at all, I was talking about imperialism. (see the link I gave)
2. Regarding the cast system in India, honestly I can't deny it, I have been to Bihar so many times and watched it myself. But Bihar (and few simialr states) is *not* India, and it is a crime in India to discriminate due to someone's cast. In cities, the cast is non-existant. My parent's marriage is intercast.
BTW Sriraj, honestly can you say there is no racism in America? By this I *do not* mean or imply that - "Whites are racist*, this is pendulum thinking and I do not want to argue with that.
Also, are you guys aware that there is 50% reservation in India in education and govt. jobs for backward castes? (There are going to be more socio-economic issues due to that very shortly.) This (castism) is used more as a political issue by politicians than by people in India.
Likewise, what about the opression and torture of the mexican farm workers in the US?
But then, though it is true, in all probability that's not the only truth; right? Same thing applies to India!
So many misunderstandings about India, need more people to tell them the facts. Good job Sriraj, more later...

[Devesh H Rao]

Hi ppl,

At the monent we don't think India is led by an irresponsible government with the intent aid and abet those intent on attacking the US.

who decides who is irresponsible .
It is countries we are talking here not some brats running around college campuses killing ppl who need to be disciplined . if we are talking of abeting terrorism then the US is no less innocent as it has always aided directly or indirectly terrorists in the guise of freedom fighters .
Ravish i completely agree with u on this when u say who is this we.
If u are an indian fine ur opinion is welcome even if it sucks but if u are not an indian please stay away from our internal matters .
U can now proceed with ur justification of playing god in iraq....!

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
I am expecting Jason or Thomas to bring up the example of Cuba to counter the above statement.. but in retrospect it is my opinion that Cuba wouldnt have occurred if not for the Korean war..

I already posted this, but one more time:
"The new documentation, combined with recent testimony by Soviet and Cuban officials, also sheds light on what is perhaps the most important puzzle of the missile crisis, namely, what motivated the Soviets to deploy nuclear weapons in Cuba. The declassified record shows that U.S. officials were well aware that their deployment of Jupiter missiles near Soviet borders in Turkey and Italy in 1959 would be deeply resented by Soviet officials; even President Eisenhower noted that it would be a "provocative" step analogous to the deployment of Soviet missiles in "Mexico or Cuba. A declassified military history of the Jupiter system reveals that the rockets became operational in April 1962—an event that may have contributed to Khrushchev's proposal, made the very same month, to deploy similar weapons in Cuba.
In addition, the documents lend credence to Khrushchev's claim that a primary Soviet motivation was the defense of Cuba against a U.S. invasion. For years, U.S. analysts have dismissed this as a face-saving, after-the-fact rationale that enabled the Soviets to declare victory in the confrontation rather than admit defeat. But formerly top-secret documents, released to the National Security Archive in January 1989, provide a detailed description of a 1962 U.S. covert action program known as OPERATION MONGOOSE, which combined sabotage, infiltration, and psychological warfare activities with military exercises and contingency operations for a possible invasion to overthrow the Castro government. Guidelines for OPERATION MONGOOSE, tacitly approved by President Kennedy in March 1962, noted that the "final success" of the program would "require decisive U.S. military intervention." Although Kennedy never formally authorized an invasion, former administration officials acknowledge that Cuban intelligence had infiltrated the CIA's exile groups and learned of plans for a potential invasion—which, ironically, was scheduled for October 1962.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/declass.htm
[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Manav Mitra]

Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:
Hi ppl,
If u are an indian fine ur opinion is welcome even if it sucks but if u are not an indian please stay away from our internal matters .

Devesh,
I agree with you on most counts, but this is where I beg to differ; I think they are more than welcome to *express* their views about India, after all that's the point of discussion -- if we don't have interaction how else can we covert the misconception into the knowledge based on facts about India?
However, when they decide to tell us what to do and what not to do, it's another matter... Probably you (and Ravish as well) meant that!

[Manav Mitra]

In the US we do not tolerate the subjugation of women.

We do not tolerate it either!
Few links -
1. Now consider the following the statistics about how many women are treated in the United States - http://www.soundvision.com/Info/misc/wvastat.asp
BTW, isn't this guy called Mr. Bill Clinton, who happens to be ex-president of the US as well, abused his intern Monica???
- Manav

[Devesh H Rao]

i rephrase myself
Any opinions and comments are welcome as long as it is constructive criticism which help in improving someone or something but when someone crosses the line and tries to live my life for me or for that matter for my country it is where i will tell them to get off.
No doubt interaction is necessary to remove some misconceptions which are present in people not from india but here i would like to add that when comments

We know that India sujugates women and people in lower castes.
We know India posses WMD.
At the monent we don't think India is led by an irresponsible government with the intent aid and abet those intent on attacking the US.

like these are made they are directed against a whole entity called India and not some individuals itself. It is analogous to branding America racist coz racism is still there in america practised by a few (which i think is wrong by the way).
The point being the person giving the opinion is not intent on learning about something which he dosen't know but he in that moment of giving opinion acquires a role which already has a mindset which is not going to change by having a meaningful debate or discussion with him.
Guests are always welcome in my home i always belive in "Athiti deva bhava" meaning "treat ur guests like god" but if the guest tries to become the host it is time to ask him to leave.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I don't think anyone will deny India's possesion of nuclear weapons.

I avoided a lot
FYI India has declared itself as a Nuclear Power in 1999-2000. So no one can deny this.
You need to update your DB.
And dont worry, there were sanctions form uncle and still some sanctions are there.
[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Stepping in and stopping the father from abusing the daughter has time and again be proven to be the mature act. Failure to act because the father and the daughter are going to, in the short run, resent your act, is IMO short sighted and negligent.

Till what time will you step in and tell his father.
OK now you have freed her.
But she did not want to be free.
Now what she will do? She got this freedom for nothing, even at the loss of her father.
Now two things are there are, either you become her father OR let her exploit her freedom.
So you will become her father.
But can you replace real father :-? Bet on it, she will always compare you with her real father, which you cant be
Short sightness will be to lose temper and kill her father and say her, now you are free.
Have you thought what will she do once she become free ??[This is negligent]
Till she herself demand freedom, it is useless to free her.
If she ask me as a neighbour then I must interfere but till then I have no right ...

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I agree. Donald Rumsfeld be damned. US will be in Iraq for a long time. There's a new unsinkable aircraft carrier in the center of the Arab world.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
Till she herself demand freedom, it is useless to free her.
If she ask me as a neighbour then I must interfere but till then I have no right ...

Child abuse and spousal abuse is morally repugnant and illegal. Everybody has the duty to report it to the proper authorities, usually state or local government authorities, who have the responsibility to put an end to it, regardless of what the spouse or child's opinion on the subject is. Somebody who knows this type of abuse is going on yet does nothing about it is at best negligent and irresponsible.
If someone wants to try and make an analogy between this and Iraq that's fine, but it seems to me to be a poor analogy.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Child abuse and spousal abuse is morally repugnant and illegal.

Dearest Jason,
For quick reference, I am reposting it[originaly posted by Manav]
================
I have this conservative neighbour, he doesn't allow his 17 year old daughter to wear jeans and generally treats his children as if he owns them. The girl feels like having fun like most teenagers but this uncle* wouldn't let her do that. The other day he slapped her, can you believe it? Too annoying!!! Being a chidhood friend I think I should help her, rather I should "liberate her", what do you say should I kill her father? Not too difficult to get rid of the sick old man!!!
================
*- Here genrally people dont take name of elders. Here uncle is father of girl.
No where, he talked abt child abuse or marriage rape. He is talking abt conservative father and his daughter.
If it would have been the case you mentioned then everyone MUST do what you have suggested.

Everybody has the duty to report it to the proper authorities, usually state or local government authorities, who have the responsibility to put an end to it, regardless of what the spouse or child's opinion on the subject is.
- by Jason

Now let us assume that it was the case of child abuse.
We should go to proper authority or we should have taken action by ourself.
Let us assume proper authority is not good enough to take care of child. Should not we try to get the support of neighbours to make this child free.
OR I could have simply said that I knew that she was suffring from child abuse and thats why I murdered.
Neighbours, other people wont believe me till I produce proper justification of my action.
And if I would have been proved liar earlier then it would be more difficult for me to prove my action.
And more over if it is felt by all neighbours and people that authority is not doing its job/duty then we should try to correct the authority rather than taking action by ourself.
We cant be everywhere but proper autority if functioning properly, will have right to be all places and will carry out his job.
So if we want to take long term/permanant solution against this abuser and all other abusers, who are out of our reach then we should make proper authority to carry out his duties rather than doing authority's job.
[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason: Somebody who knows this type of abuse is going on yet does nothing about it is at best negligent and irresponsible.
I would agree with that. However to go and to kill an abuser seems a little too extreme for me. And this is what the US attempted (at least) to do -- it deliberately tried to kill a leader of an independed state. Without trial. You will claim that this is legal?