Astrology

[basha khan]

Anybody knows about it well?

Are the daily predictions Yahoo astrology giving is true?

What is Astrology?. Any believers?
[ June 21, 2006: Message edited by: basha khan ]

[Sameer Jamal]

[basha khan]

Good one. But the questien is for the believers. I know there are plenty available here.

[MInu]

I do beleive in astrology in some extent.........

[basha khan]

Why? any ratio between Predictions/realities?

[MInu]

I don't think one can predict your future in a precise manner...Astrology is a system that uses the position of the planets, moon and sun in the twelve Zodiac positions at the moment of one's birth to gain knowledge of the future.

[Dave Lenton]

I'd be interested to see how people justify a belief in astrology. Often those who make astrological predictions treat it as a science - they follow certain rules such a particular planet being in front of a particular set of stars causes a certain effect. What I find strange about this scientific outlook of astrology is that everything else about it is very un-scientific in that there is nothing remotely like proof that it actually works.

I'm not saying that astrology is incorrect (I can't prove it doesn't work), but that I'd be interested in the arguments in support of it, and how people think that the position of some stars in the sky can make them a "typical Taurus". Just how do they effect your personality? How does the stage of a planet's orbit make you more likely to have a good day?

Astrology certainly is popular. In the UK more people read their horoscope then go to church.
[ June 22, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]

[Sameer Jamal]

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
I'd be interested to see how people justify a belief in astrology. Often those who make astrological predictions treat it as a science - they follow certain rules such a particular planet being in front of a particular set of stars causes a certain effect. What I find strange about this scientific outlook of astrology is that everything else about it is very un-scientific in that there is nothing remotely like proof that it actually works.

I'm not saying that astrology is incorrect (I can't prove it doesn't work), but that I'd be interested in the arguments in support of it, and how people think that the position of some stars in the sky can make them a "typical Taurus". Just how do they effect your personality? How does the stage of a planet's orbit make you more likely to have a good day?

Astrology certainly is popular. In the UK more people read their horoscope then go to church.

[ June 22, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]

I completely agree with this you cant say that astrology is a science, science require facts,evidence and proof, astrology is a subject of reserach not the subject itself.

Astrology was invented by those ancient sailors who used to sail to India for spices and they were pretty familiar with the orientation of stars, they used to sail for six-seven months and after that have nothing usefull to do, so they started to play with people with their knowledge of stars, that is how it was born.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:

I'm not saying that astrology is incorrect (I can't prove it doesn't work), but that I'd be interested in the arguments in support of it, and how people think that the position of some stars in the sky can make them a "typical Taurus". Just how do they effect your personality? How does the stage of a planet's orbit make you more likely to have a good day?

People who are really into Astrology would never say anyone is a "typical Taurus". However, they might refer to character traits that are typical of most people who have their Sun Sign as Taurus. Real believers in Astrology know that it's about much more than just the Sun Sign (better known as the Star Sign) and that the alignment of many other planets have great significance. I'm not so into the "future telling" element of Astrology but I have found that when I have produced a Birth Chart for some people that all of them have found that they recognise themselves in the descriptions offered based on the alignment of the planets when they were born.

[fred rosenberger]

Oh boy... Angela, i'm sorry but we're gonna disagree again.

take three people. one born on april 23, on born on may 19th, and one born on may 23rd. the two people born in may were born with the 'stars' in approx. the same position, but the horoscope for them is completly different. the may 19th person shares a horoscope with the april person...

Most horoscopes are so general, they could apply to anyone. James Randi has done many experiments, testing the validity of astrology. One time, he specially prepared individual horoscopes for every member of a high school class of about 30. each student was given theirs in a sealed envelope with their name on it.

everyone was told to open it and read it. James then asked them on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being most accurate, how close each student felt their horoscopes matched them. nobody raised their hands for 1, 2 or 3. about 1/4 said theirs was a 4, and the rest all felt that it VERY accuratly described them.

Then he did something very interesting. he had them all switch papers, and read somebody else's. it turns out, they ALL GOT THE EXACT SAME THING. and since everyone thought it was especially made for them, they saw themselves in it.

In no properly controlled experiment has astrology ever been shown to be valid. He has tested dozens, if not hundreds of claiments. Now, he does not say "do this to prove it". for each claimant, he asks them what they can do, and how accuratly. the test protocol is established through a mutual dialog. BOTH sides have to agree to the protocol, and that it is fair, or no testing is done. so every claimant tested agreed upon what would be done, when, and how accuratly. None have ever passed.

Angela, i would propose this test... take five people, get their birthdates, and prepare five charts. make sure no chart has any identifying info, like "being born in the spring, you..." and such. give them to an independant third party, without telling him which is which.

have that third person give all five to each of the five individuals (you are not allowed to be present for this, if it is a proper double-blind study). have each person decide which of the 5 charts is theirs.

i'd be willing to bet only 1 or 2 get it right.

if you get 5 out of 5, then apply for James' $1 million dollar challenge.
[ June 22, 2006: Message edited by: fred rosenberger ]

[Angela Poynton]

Fred, with all due respect, I propose you open your mind and accept that there are some things in this world that may not be proven by a double-blind study but may still be real. I'm not saying this is definately one of them, but I choose to believe there is something in it.

Since the planets are constantly moving I don't accept your argument.
The chart for a person born at 6am in New York will be different to another person born at exactly the same time in London.

I don't puport to have extansive knowledge of Astrology but I've done some research, enough to be able to produce basic birth charts. How much have you done? There's a lot more I don't know, as I said, my charts are pretty basic, there's loads of other info that could be added, I don't even know where that comes from.

As I said, the whole "horoscope" side of things is a totally different thing and something I don't really have too much faith in.

[fred rosenberger]

I'm not asking anyone to explain it. i'm not even asking for proof it works. what i'm asking is for evidence it works, at least SOME of the time. my mind is VERY open to learning new things. i think that is about the coolest thing ever.

but i don't accept something that goes contrary to all the evidence we have of how the universe works, without SOME kind of evidence supporting it.

Anecdotal stories don't really work for me. i'm sorry. they tend to be falsified, glorified, and extremly selective. you forget all the misses, because they're not spectacular. even with the knowlege of this, you still do it. i can remember amny times i've won at the casino, but don't remember anytime i lost. people tend to forget those, for whatever reason.

How much research have i done on Astrology? none as far as how to create something astrological. i've read about many proper scientific studies, none of which showed any evidence that it works. i've also read several that DID show evidence it works, but then found/read about flaws in the procedure.

if astrology is legitimate, then shouldn't two people creating the same chart for me come up with the exact same thing?

I think the universe is an AMAZING place to be. looking at the stars makes me feel humble, knowing how far away they are, how big they are, how much power and energy they contain/pump out. reading about quarks and mesons and strange matter is simply mind blowing. i don't need astrology, ghosts, spirits, gods, or anything else to feel amazing and special.

you say that the planets are constantly in motion. do you do a chart based on where the planet IS, or where it appears to be? it takes the light a while to get here, so we're actually seeing it where it was at some point in the past... if you rely on stars, they're even further away, sometimes thousands of light years. is this taken into account?

and what about the fact that every so often, we find a new planet? does that mean that every chart done so far is wrong, since it didn't account for the new planet? how do i know the one you do today is valid, since we might find another planet in a year or two???

i don't expect to change you mind. You CHOOSE to believe, and that is your right. i choose to look for evidence. and in my humble opinion, there is none.

again, i'm sorry if i'm sounding harsh. this kind of stuff is a hot button issue for me. if i may, i'd suggest the book "Why People Believe Weird Things", by Michael Shermer. it's a fascinating read.

i'd be happy to read any book on Astrology you'd reccomend, if you think it will illuminate me.

[vjy chin]

Hi,

I actually didnt go through this discussion in full, but just wanted to add some points.

I first was also not believing in astrology. Then my cousin, (hes good at it) taught me(i know little now) the basics and explained the planets and stars, their positions and how to predit the movements and what they imply.

I feel its science combined with intution. Unfortunately, most of the people dont know the whole concepts or just not good enough. But if one is really good at it, I feel he can predict things, atleast 75-80% of the time.

[fred rosenberger]

I feel he can predict things, atleast 75-80% of the time.

then apply and win a million dollars.

[Ryan McGuire]

Originally posted by vjy chin:
Hi,
...
I feel its science combined with intution. Unfortunately, most of the people dont know the whole concepts or just not good enough. But if one is really good at it, I feel he can predict things, atleast 75-80% of the time.

75-80%? That's sounds significantly better than random chance outcomes. What is your cousin going to do with his million dollars?

[vjy chin]

quote: I feel he can predict things, atleast 75-80% of the time.



then apply and win a million dollars.

When I meant he, I didnt mean my cousin, i said it in general. Moreover my cousin knows most of the calculation and concept part, but hes not good in intution. One can predict past with calculations, concepts and with little intution, but to predict future you need lots of intution apart from others.

This is just my opinion.

[fred rosenberger]

i'm sure that if you (or he) could accuratly predict the past of a stranger, simply by knowing the date/time/place of birth, it would qualify for the challenge.

look at it this way. if i said "i can accuratly predict anyone's past, present and future by looking at the kind of shoe they wear", would you believe me?

what if i said i could do it based on the name of their best friend's pet? or on how they type on a keyboard? would you believe me?

i fail to see any difference between my methods and astrology. i'd LOVE it for someone to prove me wrong.

[Ryan McGuire]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Fred, with all due respect, I propose you open your mind and accept that there are some things in this world that may not be proven by a double-blind study but may still be real. I'm not saying this is definately one of them, but I choose to believe there is something in it. ...

But if something can't be proven with a double blind study (or something approaching that level of rigor) then it is worthless to consider.* It doesn't have to be 100% acurate to be "real", but I'd like to see at least some faint blip against the background noise of random chance.

* Of course something that hasn't YET been proven to exist might be worth studying in an effort to discover whether it exists or not. But until it's been shown to have any effect, it's worthless to use its dis/unproven properties to predict anything.

For example, the famous Michelson-Morley experiment doesn't really disprove the existence of some type of luminiferous aether that acts as a medium for light; it just proves that IF that aether exists THEN it's motion relative to direction of travel of the light has no effect. Once it's been shown that said aether has no effect, there's no point in discussing whether it exists or not. In particular, it is pointless to make non-null predictions of how relative motion of the aether will affect the speed of light.

SO...
There might be some correlation between the positions and motions of the planets and stars and the lives of people on Earth, but since the body of such correlations that have been "discovered" so far don't stand up to scientific study, they are most likely wrong. Maybe the "sun being in Libra" does mean something about my life -- just not what Astrologers currently think it does.

Did all that make sense?
[ June 22, 2006: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]

[vjy chin]

Hi Fred,

Using you time, and place of birth, you can create your birth chart. That will give out the planets position at the time of birth and we can calculate the positions now. There are many softwares to calculate the birthchart. Using that you can predict, if you know the calculations and have the intution.

if astrology is legitimate, then shouldn't two people creating the same chart for me come up with the exact same thing?

Moreover it also depends on the person and his customs and culture.

e.g. For someone in India and someone in US, comfortable life means different. A car is comfortable in India,(but now it has changed) but in US it a must.

Actually there are lots of permutation and combinations to consider from one's chart.

I have also learnt that the way astrology in the western countries is bit different from in India.

I would let my cousin know about that, but not sure if he would do it though.
[ June 22, 2006: Message edited by: vjy chin ]

[Ted Evans]

If a virgin can give birth, if a 1000 yr old book can contain secrets of a zygot or nuclear bomb, or if 100s of gods and goddess can make your wish come true, then I feel that astrology is quite reasonable. At least there is a sensible premise - x star/plant at y location produces z effect. I think that's quite logical. Now, what x, y, and z are can definitely be a point of discussion. Whether anybody really knows the values of x y and z, is another thing. Some people claim to know that and some people choose to believe them. It is no different than some people who claim to be "prophets" and some people who believe them.

I find it amusing when people who believe in god or religion start trashing astrology or for that matter another god and another religion.

[Jeroen T Wenting]

and thus you contradict yourself and your statement that astrology is a scientific process...

If it were there would be no differences in the outcome no matter who made the "prediction".

And of course "predictions" about the past are extremely stupid if they're wrong...

I can't for example "predict" that Townes van Zandt died on new year's day 1997, simply because I KNOW he did, yet an astrologer would use a lot of mumbo-jumbo about the stars and the planets to "predict" just that and then turn up a book of dead musicians and show you the "proof" of what he did (of course he'd have consulted that same book before starting to concoct his story).

Astrologers tell people simply what they want to hear, which is that they'll have good fortune, love, happiness, and riches.

[vjy chin]

Astrologers tell people simply what they want to hear, which is that they'll have good fortune, love, happiness, and riches.

Always this is not true, only people who has limited knowledge or who's after money do this.

Most people who goto the astrologers are alive and he may not know the person at all. But still he would say the right things about him.

I have HEARD some people telling even the parents name, many other things without even knowing the persons.


I would say, its a complex calculation using the plantes and their positions. There are various combinations to consider before predicting something. Even for one thing, you need to do lot of calculations, plus use your intution to predict correctly.

[John Smith]

Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
do you do a chart based on where the planet IS, or where it appears to be? it takes the light a while to get here, so we're actually seeing it where it was at some point in the past... if you rely on stars, they're even further away, sometimes thousands of light years.

That's a damn good observation, I didn't think of this before. In fact, it's entirely possible that any given astrological chart is based on the star that has not been there for the last few thousand years. So, even if the underlying astrological principle is completely legit, the resulting chart would still be way off the mark.

Having said that, I would also suggest it's undeniable that the planets and stars do affect people. Just think of a gravitational field that they create, thereby shaping the space and time in which we all exist. And with the advances in the quantum mechanics, it becomes more and more scientific principle that everything affects everything. We just don't know yet how it all works. Perhaps the only two groups of people who claim the "know how" are the astrologers and the theologists.

[Paul Clapham]

Originally posted by John Smith:
Just think of a gravitational field that they create, thereby shaping the space and time in which we all exist.

Yeah. But the person standing next to you exerts a greater gravitational influence on you than the planet Mars does. (You could do the calculation.) It isn't gravity that makes astrology work.

[Jeroen T Wenting]

Google, newspaper archives, government databases, and libraries make astrology work (at least for "predicting" the past and to some degree the present)...

[Satish Chilukuri]

Originally posted by vjy chin:


I have HEARD some people telling even the parents name, many other things without even knowing the persons.

I have a theory for that. Most people base their lives on horoscopes. They are named based on position of planets at the time of their birth. Marriages are done by consulting horoscopes. The boys's horoscope has to "match" with the girl's. Even the date of the marriage is chosen based on horoscope. In addition to that, in the place where I come from, based on your family name, we have one more attribute called "gotram". The gotrams of the bride and groom have to match.

Now if you go to the astrologer and give your horoscope, from your date and time of birth he knows what letter your name starts with, from your age he can guess the approximate year of marriage of your parents, from your gotram, what the gotram of your mother can be. From this he can guess what your parents horoscopes can be. Once the horoscopes have been narrowed down, its pretty easy to give out more details.

I know its a very oversimplistic way of looking at astrology. But my knowledge of astrology -> 0. But I'm sure that there are a lot more variables in one's horoscope and if that person has lived his entire life based on his horoscope, it shouldn't be that difficult to "predict" his past.

[R K Singh]

On astrology, I think Manish is the right person to throw some light.

where is Manish Hatwalne ??

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Ryan McGuire:
Once it's been shown that said aether has no effect, there's no point in discussing whether it exists or not.

I think the correlation between effect and existence is even stronger then that. If something could be said to have absolutely no effect on anything, then this appears to be as good as saying that it doesn't exist.

I do believe that the stars have an effect on my life. Sometimes I look at them and feel interested or have sense of wonder. Sometimes they inspire me to read science books. Sometimes the nearest one makes my skin go bright red and peel. But I doubt that ever a star has ever determined if I am going to have a good day or not, or if I am going to contact a long lost friend or any of the other things the horoscopes say.

I suspect that horoscopes are designed to work in much the same way that mediums and tarot card predictions work - they are vague enough that people can pick out the bits that apply to them.

I once saw an interesting programme on this subject. Derren Brown (a British illusionist) pretended, to separate groups of people, to be a Psychic, a salesman of new age sleeping machines, a Christian healer and then a medium. In each case he managed to convince the group that his "powers" were real, and then explained to the cameras how he managed to utilise a few simple tricks of suggestion to encourage people to think what he wanted. I suspect that a lot of fortune tellers have similar psychological skills, and that they are skilled at reading people's reactions to determine what to tell them and can also phrase things in a way in which people will see relevant meaning in the words.

None of this disproves astrology, or any of the other fortune telling techniques, but Occam's Razor suggests that it is more likely to be a result of human psychology rather then what it claims to be. Just like Fred, I'd love to be proved wrong though. It would be very cool indeed to have physics turned on its head again!
[ June 23, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]

[Tony Alicea]

Which astrology, Tropical (mostly Western) or Sidereal (the one used most by Hindu astrologers)?

I wonder how many of you interested dudes and dudettes know that the signs of the Zodiac differ from the constellations of the Zodiac...? ("Inquiring minds want to know" Ha!)

The explanation of the answer is left as an exercise for the interested student

BTW, the statement that it doesn't work because it can't work is dismissed as irrelevant.

I don't believe in astrology, BTW.

Instead I ..*049#@$%#1!!+_":{}>?<? the truth is that...

Sorry; it seems that my connection is breaking up...
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW!?!?

^quit*098!^quit^q^ctl)alt-del;^exit^ex^del^...

[Tony Alicea]

Cosmobiology (I didn't name it like that although I have personally shaken the hand of Ebertin senior more than 30 years ago; his son was also there and was the one that spoke English) does not depend on any zodiac (sidereal or tropical).



It is a vast improvement over so-called traditional astrology for the mathematically-inclined, event-driven western mind.

[Tony Alicea]

By the way, by Tropical astrology I don't mean astrology that is done while sipping one of those alcoholic drinks that have a tiny umbrella on them, while in the tropics...

In fact tropical does not even include Miami or for that matter KEY WEST!

While Key West (the southernmost point in the continental USA) is not, repeat, NOT tropical, 90 miles south of it Habana [or Havana], Cuba is.

The definition of Tropical (when it comes to countries or more precisely pieces of land or ocean for that matter) has nothing to do with the average (or any other) temperature.

What is Tropical is defined essentially (derived from) by the angle of inclination between the rotational axis of the Earth and the plane defined by its traversal path around the Sun.

But we all know that from high school, right?... (HIC!!!)

Another one: to the one that so enthusiastically declared that astrology was WAY off because this or another star was like we see it millions of years ago and not now, that is not a valid observation: According to astrology (I don't believe in it) it is how the skies LOOK from Earth that matter.

For example, and I am surprised that no one has mentioned this before, 'astrology' is geocentric. So much so that it calls the Sun and Moon, planets! (How retarded!)

Everyone knows (well, almost everyone in the advanced world) that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth but the other way around instead. (And the Moon landing wasn't staged either, by the way! Ha!)

However, for 'astrology' what matters is how things look from the Earth. For example, if the sun is way high in the sky when someone is born, it really is immaterial whether the sky looks like that because the Sun is circling the Earth or the other way around.

In fact, for a really scientific astronomer taking a picture, it would also be irrelevant. The important thing is that, from the Earth, the Sun appears to be at its highest point of the day as seen from the Earth. Period.

[fred rosenberger]

So, according you you, clouds have a dramatice effect on my Astrology stuff, because they certainly effect how things look from the Earth.

[Jesus Angeles]

Originally posted by basha khan:
Anybody knows about it well?

Are the daily predictions Yahoo astrology giving is true?

What is Astrology?. Any believers?

[ June 21, 2006: Message edited by: basha khan ]

I dont think science has proven yet that any form of astrology is exact to certain level.

Otherwise, we would be in Fiji now enjoying our retirement.

This is because, if it works in an exact manner, we can predict the stock market, as it is a result in some ways of human actions, which in turn is affected by astrology.

So i guess it looks like asstrology(lines on our bottoms will do same i guess) gives 50%-50% accuracy.

[Jeroen T Wenting]

the only zodiacs I'm interested in are made of rubber, metal, and wood, and have a nice big outboard motor

If you want the truth about astrology read Douglas Adams' Mostly Harmless.
[ June 23, 2006: Message edited by: Jeroen T Wenting ]

[basha khan]

quote Ted Evans

x star/plant at y location produces z effect.

I am still in the very basic. Fred is talking abt the proofs. But i dont even got the theory.

The questien is simple. How it relates with humens? Why and how Astrology connecting humen life with some stars somewhere moving around in space? what is the logic?. What is the connection? How it could be proved? or at least Astrology can describe it in terms of logic? or it's like God(Believers paradise)?

From Fred's posts, i got that proofs are also baseless. I think it's all about beliefs, if u believe, Astrology will happen to u. And it's belief. Not astrology. Then the Q is why people believe?

What makes astrology a science?

Quote Dave lenton

I do believe that the stars have an effect on my life. Sometimes I look at them and feel interested or have sense of wonder.

Any logic? How many times predictions happened to u and not happened?

Quote Jesus Angeles

So i guess it looks like asstrology(lines on our bottoms will do same i guess) gives 50%-50% accuracy.

I too guess the same. asstrology.
[ June 24, 2006: Message edited by: basha khan ]

[Stefan Wagner]

I use astrology for programming.
Take the dates of first design and the intended release-date, to decide whether to use an int or a double.

Don't debug on Wendsdays.

In general, a 13th or 17th isn't a good day for the observer-pattern.
Don't use Windows before May 2202.

Linux and VB.NET don't fit good together.

I can give you more hints for a little salary.

[Syam Sathyan George]

I am from a family in kerala(India) which had astrologers appointed for scheduling timings for various family Events.

In India there is no degree or course to become an astrologer.
But you will have to find a Guru who knows it and become his deciple, in ancient india there were many real Guru's - now most of them are fake.

I believe in it - once had a chat with a young astrologer who was previously a geographic teacher.I asked him why he left his profession(teaching).For that he replied that both are science and both are truth.
He wanted to learn something new so joined astrology

He even told me about the year in which my grandfather will die.It happened and then he told my mom will have to go to another country - she left within 6 months to Saudi Arabia.
[ June 24, 2006: Message edited by: Syam Sathyan ]

[David O'Meara]

My view? It's cold reading, and it takes knowledge, skill and practice like any other con.

[Tony Alicea]

It is amazing how many people live their lives according to what they read in the newspaper as far as astrology columns concerns...

I have met more than a few people who take these columns very seriously.

Of course I take the time to politely point to them the futility of doing such thing... I only tell them once.

[Tony Alicea]

Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
So, according you you, clouds have a dramatice effect on my Astrology stuff, because they certainly effect how things look from the Earth.

Ha ha! You got me!

But clouds have no effect in any system of astrology that I know about!

Maybe they should though, considering all the nonsense published about it! Ha ha ha!