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This road could make you a CRIMINAL 50%

 
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I got a ticket for driving down a road that is no access for cars or motorcycles only for buses and taxis. I will not go into the details but 40% of cars end up with a Penalty-Charge-Notice of �50 because they did not see the signs and end up going street down that road.

In the last two hours 50 drivers got caught going down this road (ST Pancras Road, Camdon). Some of my workmates answer to this is �Did they have a sign saying you cannot go down the road� and when I say �Yes� They said I am in the wrong and better of paying without complaining. And this is regardless of whether 50% of driver get caught going down that road.
 
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So are you saying that if 50 drivers get stopped for speeding along the same road that is clearly marked with a speed limit, then what? The speed limit should be increased? No one should be stopped? If your workmates jumped off a cliff, would you follow them?
 
Gerald Davis
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Not for speeding, for going down a road that only taxis and public transport buses are allowed down. They don't get pulled over, but get detected by a CCTV Camera and sent a bill though the post. The goal is to have CCTV cameras that can automatically detect all kinds of traffic offences other then speeding and jumping traffic lights.
 
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Actually, I've heard that here in California, if you can show that you were not exceding the average speed that people actually drive on that street, you can beat the speeding ticket, regardless of posted limits. The jurisdiction is required to survey streets for driving speeds periodically, and provide you with that information for your case. Or so I've heard.

For Gerald's case, he might be able to argue that the lane is not posted clearly enough, and use the number of people caught each day as evidence. Personally, I'd just pay the fine and avoid a day in court.
 
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Originally posted by Greg Charles:
Actually, I've heard that here in California, if you can show that you were not exceding the average speed that people actually drive on that street, you can beat the speeding ticket, regardless of posted limits. The jurisdiction is required to survey streets for driving speeds periodically, and provide you with that information for your case. Or so I've heard.



Oh is it really true ? Then I would be very much interested in knowing where can I get actual "Average Speed" .. 'cause in last week a cop pulled me over for going downhill at 50 where the speed limit was 35.. and I drive on that road daily and rarely I have seen people driving below 45.. The cop was very polite though .. infact he only suggested me to attend a driving school in order to keep my insurance same.. or does he get some comminsion / driver he sends to driving school..
 
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Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
So are you saying that if 50 drivers get stopped for speeding along the same road that is clearly marked with a speed limit, then what? The speed limit should be increased? ...


Oddly enough, this came up at a city council meeting. If there are too many speeders along a particular stretch of road, then raising the speed limit is one way they deal with it (provided there aren't contraindications, like a school zone or history of injuries/damages). The rationale is that posting limits that are "too low" results in widespread violations, which leads to disregard for speed limits in general. As I recall, a police officer even said something like, "That's one way citizens provide feedback that a limit is unreasonable."
 
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I have no problems with speed camaras I just simply below 34mph until road signs tell me otherwise. The problem is being cought out by missleading road signs and being fined because of it.

What can they say to me, stop and think next time
 
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I know what you mean, Gerald. I did this a couple of months ago in Nottingham. I had never driven there before - And the City centre there is full of No Entries unless for Buses and Taxis , and yes Trams. I got into one of these but realised it quickly and backed off before I was caught by a police or a camera. Sometimes if there is a bus in front of you, you can miss these signs, unless you know the area. If a lot of cars end up going through the road you are talking about, the Council do have an obligation to make the No Entry signs more visible , bigger , brighter. Thats what they are there for - To make life easier for all of us.

My sympathies for the 40 quid fine.

Originally posted by Gerald Davis:
I got a ticket for driving down a road that is no access for cars or motorcycles only for buses and taxis. I will not go into the details but 40% of cars end up with a Penalty-Charge-Notice of �50 because they did not see the signs and end up going street down that road.

 
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I've seen this a couple of ways. In the US in most states "Impeding Traffic", especially on a highway is a ticketable offense. It usually carries the same penalty as a minor speeding infraction. So then, if you are going the speed limit, which happens to be 10 - 20 MPH lower than the actual speed of traffic, are you breaking the law by "Impeding Traffic"?

Of course, the reality is that the police organizations in teh US traditionally get a budget line-amount equal to the money raised from tickets. As such, they see it as revenue and don't write tickets for Impeding Traffic unless someone leaves something huge out on the roadway.
[ August 30, 2006: Message edited by: Mike Van ]
 
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Originally posted by marc weber:

Oddly enough, this came up at a city council meeting. If there are too many speeders along a particular stretch of road, then raising the speed limit is one way they deal with it (provided there aren't contraindications, like a school zone or history of injuries/damages). The rationale is that posting limits that are "too low" results in widespread violations, which leads to disregard for speed limits in general. As I recall, a police officer even said something like, "That's one way citizens provide feedback that a limit is unreasonable."



what, a police officer who doesn't care purely about the income those speeding tickets generate for his department?
Here they put up ridiculously low limits for the very purpose of having people violate them, it's a steady source of income for them.

I got a ticket for driving down a road that is no access for cars or motorcycles only for buses and taxis. I will not go into the details but 40% of cars end up with a Penalty-Charge-Notice of �50 because they did not see the signs and end up going street down that road.



If the sign is indeed placed in such a way that it's very hard to see when NOT going past the limit you should gather evidence, deposit it with a lawyer (best have him present while gathering the evidence) and fight the ticket.
While you were in the wrong the road owner has a duty to make sure that restrictions are clearly marked and if they aren't you can likely get the penalty reversed.
But do gather evidence (photos especially) before you file the complaint. Wouldn't be the first time the situation was changed between the time a complaint was filed and the case came to court, destroying the evidence you could present and of course any indication that it ever had been different there.
 
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Originally posted by Gerald Davis:
The problem is being cought out by missleading road signs and being fined because of it.

You may well be able to appeal to this. Like Jeroen said, photographic evidence would be a big help.

I'm pretty sure someone managed to avoid a parking fine a while back because there were dead leaves on the side of the road covering up the double-yellow lines.
[ August 31, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
 
Gerald Davis
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I am the car in fron't. It looks like I have led the other motorists to commit a criminal act
 
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And now we're all witnesses. Cool. Let me know if I can testify in your criminal trial.
 
Jeroen T Wenting
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nice case of conflicting signage.
 
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Its annoying how (the UK) government uses schemes like this to generate income (really just another tax). I recall similar practices with car parking (small signs, owners have to pay to remove a wheel clamp). You need this car

You could claim that it is their responability to provide suitable (readable) signs - not sure how successful you would be...
 
Gerald Davis
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It is the Local Authorty that does this kind of thing. When the Metropolitan police fine you, speeding and jumping traffic lights, they put points on your licence as a deterrent. The don�t want you to break the law.
When the Local Authorities fine you, they make a profit, it wouldn�t be in there interest to put points on your licence, they are just after the money. I wouldn�t mind if the money from the fine goes to my own Local Authority �Croydon Council but it goes to Camden Councils. Camden council is quite literally subsidising its own residence council tax( Local Tax) with money from residence of other Local Authorities and foreign visitors.
[ September 01, 2006: Message edited by: Gerald Davis ]
 
marc weber
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Originally posted by Mike Van:
... So then, if you are going the speed limit, which happens to be 10 - 20 MPH lower than the actual speed of traffic, are you breaking the law by "Impeding Traffic"? ...


I don't know whether you're serious about this, but I mentioned this to my attorney. She laughed and said, "Give me the case."

In Minnesota, highways typically have a minimum speed posted below the speed limit. For example: "Speed Limit 60, Minimum 40." But these apply to ideal conditions, and you could be cited for "speeding" below these limits if overall conditions make your speed unsafe. So unless you're observed going below the posted minimum without "reasonable" justification...
 
Jeroen T Wenting
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Originally posted by marc weber:

I don't know whether you're serious about this, but I mentioned this to my attorney. She laughed and said, "Give me the case."



In Europe it's possible and does happen.
People are fined for not breaking the law if not breaking the law creates a dangerous situation (or impedes traffic).
Had they broken the law they'd of course also been fined (or arrested) for breaking the law.

Sure it's a no-win situation for drivers, which is what makes it such easy income for government agencies.
 
Jeroen T Wenting
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Originally posted by Peter Rooke:
Its annoying how (the UK) government uses schemes like this to generate income (really just another tax). I recall similar practices with car parking (small signs, owners have to pay to remove a wheel clamp). You need this car

You could claim that it is their responability to provide suitable (readable) signs - not sure how successful you would be...



In this case it looks like some construction crew made an honest mistake and should have either not posted their own sign or remove the existing one temporarilly.
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