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Clash of Civilizations!!

 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
However, I am not convinced that it is wrong for a nation to promote a continuation of its own culture.

Do you think that should include arresting people who you see as a "threat" to your culture?
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I think you are a bit confused, Dan. The French do not prohibit the use of English langugae words in everday speech. Foreign words are banned from commercial speech. Even in the US, we have stricter laws on the freedom of commercial speech.


It is my understanding that the French government makes an effort to identify foreign words that are finding their way into colloquial speech and replace those words with more traditional French words and phrases. In contrast, I am aware of no effort on the part of our government to maintain the purity of the English language by replacing foreign words with traditional English words. Obviously, any such attempt would be futile since English is an amalgamation anyway.
Here in the United States our government tries to limit the use of "offensive" words in public, but the censorship is not based on etymology.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Do you think that should include arresting people who you see as a "threat" to your culture?


I supose you are talking about the Indian law that says -
No person shall convert or attempt to convert either directly or otherwise, any person from one religion to another either by use of force or by allurement or by any fraudulent means, nor, shall any person abet any such conversion.
Any violator is liable to imprisonment which may extend to three years and a fine which may extend up to Rs. 50,000.

Arrest is not because of "threat" to the culture. The threat perceived is to communal harmony & social Peace. Castism is practised in some locations - but you have to note the fact that it has been eradicated in most of the locations. The reformations are finding some resistance here - and communal tensions do not help in anyway. Castism too has multiple faces. The people belonging to the SC/STs (lower caste) are among some respectable and also high ranking positions in many occupations. They are not included in the castism. These situations occur because of poverty. Poverty is the root of evil. Bribery and extortion do NOT reduce the communal disharmony. They only bring upon a whole gamut of new problems to the government. What would any ruling government do? Obviously no government would want to have another staines episode on their hands - or any massacre for that matter. Should they use Violence to disperse mobs who participate in the riots? There is only one outcome from the riots at such scales - innumerable deaths and suffering. A palpable loss at all levels. Violence from government too doesn't help such situations. It only leads to mis-trust and tension among the citizens. Everybody would be on the edge - a slight spark and boom - one more riot. Not to speak of the next elections. The only safe way would be prevention. Prevention of communal disharmony and at the same time uphold the rights of individuals.
There are ofcourse numerous interpretations to the law. This is just my understanding and I may not be exactly near the truth. But whatever be the Law, it should be applied equally to everybody. There cannot be anybody above the law.
Religion is the opiate of the masses - seems to be a cruel joke.
 
Dan Chisholm
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Do you think that should include arresting people who you see as a "threat" to your culture?



India is a democracy. I think I'll defer that decision to their legislature.
 
Vin Kris
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Disclaimer: These were published in a newspaper.
No doubt religion has to answer for some of the most terrible crimes in history. But that is the fault not of religion but of the ungovernable brute in man.
Mahatma Gandhi
Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers...
The modern choice is between non-violence and non-existence.
Martin Luther King
To be prepared for violence is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.
George Washington
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Vin Kris ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
India is a democracy. I think I'll defer that decision to their legislature.


So a democracy can nothing wrong? As long as a majority agree that something is a good idea then we should defer to that decision?
 
Leverager of our synergies
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So a democracy can nothing wrong? As long as a majority agree that something is a good idea then we should defer to that decision?


What else is a democracy if not agreement of majority? Who are "we" - another democracy? Why do you think one democracy knows better than another democracy?
 
Mapraputa Is
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Interesting, that every time Indian democracy tries to say something about US democracy, the latter responds "you have no idea what you are talking about"
 
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Democracy CAN be wrong in the short term. But I hope that it right in general. In India I know a very wily class of politicians have evolved. These people capture power even though they DO NOT have the majority...amazing isn’t it!! And they do it legally just like lawyers can prove in the court that OJ Simpson didn’t do it. They buy out opposition legislatures using any means - money, coercion, muscle, caste equations. And there is nothing that the majority (voters) can do about it. These politicians do politics like one would play chess and they are ready to twist the rules. They represent the same class that controls the media. While until a few years back media was highly objective, secular in India now it is not so specially the local newspapers. The present government in a province called UP is an example of majority being denied the government of its choice by the mechanizations of politicians.
 
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First of let me clear ... this time whatever I am saying I am saying is just for the sake of argument so .... let us do some MD

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[QB]
"Join my religion and you will go to heaven," could be considered an allurement.
[/b]
If you think in this way, then other is trying to say that other religion is bad, who will not reserve ticket to heaven.
Out of hundreds of other religion if one goes and slap him for abusing his own respected religion. Then I dont think, he has done something wrong. For me he has misused his freedom of speech by using it to degrade others respect.
If you come infront of me and abuse me then I might slap you Your freedom of speech does not allow to insult me infront of me, I will take my own actions to save my self-respect.

 
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I read a very interesting article in times of india today
The topic was Making friends Across Faiths.
it was written by a female muslim journalist I find it very interesting and very good so I am posting it here.

Last spring I visited a Gurudwara for the first time in my life . why not earlier ? I was apprehensive: would a muslim be welcome ? contrary to my fears, the experience turn out to be happy one. It was so peaceful and tranquil in gurudwara. I was there for an hour with Sikh friends. And then, it struck me how little we know of each others faiths. What was holding us back?

Most of us are happy to consume misleading myths of different faiths. Often I've been told that I do not look like a muslim asked to explain they admit rather sheepishly that the general impressio they have of Muslims is that of woman covered by veil, with a bunch of children in a tow. At various stages in life I've had to give explanation and counter -explanation to convince people that muslim are no different from tbe rest. Infact Indian muslims follow social custom which ressemble closely to hindu ones. yet steriotypical notions and myth continue to circulate, creating differences between communities.


Right from childhood, suspicion and apprehension of other religion get drilled into our little heads. It seems almost as though you would betray the religion you are born into if you entered places of worship of other faiths, Instead visiting one another's temple mosques and churches should be a part of growing up. this will definitely broade our perspective just as reading opens our mind and hearts to other horizons.
The best way to bridge gaps and clear doubts is by having more people-to-people contacts between different faiths.
If only religion was not made out to be such a formidable subject, we would be able to look upon god as a close friend and confidante, whether he lived in a gurudwara temple, church or mosque.

Khalil Gibran said
"[I] And if you would know god, be not therefore a solver of riddles/ rather look about you and you shall see him playing with your children / And look into space ; you shall see him walking in the clouds, outstretching his arms in the lightening and descending in the rain/ You shall see him smiling in the flowers , then rising waving his hands in the trees.."

Befriend those from different faiths and freely questio about your respective faiths. This is the best way to clear doubts, most often sowed by who want to divide and misrule.

A Jesuit priest told me " In these days of communal strife make it a point to tell your neighbour and close friends that the [B] essence of each religion of the world is to co-exist in total harmony"
 
Sameer Jamal
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RAVISH
I have to change myself, not the religion.
[QUOTE}

[QUOTE}
MAP
Isn't converting from one religion into another like changing sex back and forth?
[/QUOTE}
There is some similarity in these points
In sex reassignment surgery you can change a man/women to women/man but cannot change him/her back, but in case of religion you can do that


What is going on in here? About 100 or so posts missing!!? Is any one doing a self-destructive mode or is that our sheriffs doing their job?


This is what we call Reverse Engineering

 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by rahul rege:
I am against hindu extremists who claim to have taken the contract of patriotism and discard others.
I am not talking about them.

.......Lot of things related to India......... and only India.

I dont like discussing ourselves in public.


Here I have to debate, *I dont like discussing*, does not mean that other can say anything bad, and that is also without knowing the real thing.
If you want we can discuss it in indiainfo.com, indiatimes.com, etc.... message board.
and atleast not in Meaningless Drivel
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
[QB][/QB]


and thats why I like these Sufi Sant's Maqbara.
There is no religion bar. if you have faith go and pray. They are not God but doing better job then God.
I feel sorry when I come to know that non-hindu cant enter in Tirupati temple and there are some Masjid's where there is board that only Muslims are allowed.
Why this boundation ??
All religions are bad if they will be intepreted by few men only.
I have been in Mosque, Chruch, Temple, Gurudwara and all places are a like. You find peace there.
But the moment Pandit comes in temple, Maulana comes in Masjid, Father comes in Chruch and try to be broker for God and try to sell God, everything becomes dirty.
 
Thomas Paul
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I don't see any point to this discussion anymore. We are going over the same ground.
I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India. Who wants to visit a country where people think its OK to attack someone for insulting them?
[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
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{
I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India
}
We are glad you are not coming
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

So a democracy can nothing wrong? As long as a majority agree that something is a good idea then we should defer to that decision?


The law is not directed at any particular community. It is directed at anyone indulging bad practice. Just because the law is there, no one can go and put someone in Jail. Let our court decide whether it is force or etc etc.. As for "force" definition or anyother definition in a law, for your information, force can be in anyform. You can not define it.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:
Democracy CAN be wrong in the short term. But I hope that it right in general. In India I know a very wily class of politicians have evolved. These people capture power even though they DO NOT have the majority...amazing isn’t it!! And they do it legally just like lawyers can prove in the court that OJ Simpson didn’t do it. They buy out opposition legislatures using any means - money, coercion, muscle, caste equations. And there is nothing that the majority (voters) can do about it. These politicians do politics like one would play chess and they are ready to twist the rules. They represent the same class that controls the media. While until a few years back media was highly objective, secular in India now it is not so specially the local newspapers. The present government in a province called UP is an example of majority being denied the government of its choice by the mechanizations of politicians.


Are you talking about democracy or politicians? My understand about the hung parliment or assembly in our country is, if you dont have absolute majority in parliment or assembly, governer or president can not invite any party to form a government. Now it is up to the politicians to prove whether they have majority members backing. If anyone prove it, he will be invited. Look at what is happening in J&K now.
And what is Democracy anyway? My general understand is (after I see governments accusing other governments of not being democratic and being dictatorship), if the people are given the rights to elect one of them as their representative, it is called democracy. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Sheriff
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
The law is not directed at any particular community. It is directed at anyone indulging bad practice.


"Bad practice" as defined by the Hindu majority. You are correct though, these laws are not directed at any one community. They seem to be directed at Muslims and Christians. Hindus seem to be exempt. Forced Hindu "homecomings" are allowed.

As for "force" definition or anyother definition in a law, for your information, force can be in anyform. You can not define it.


That's convenient. It's merely something that's recognized when seen no doubt.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[QB]I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India.


Thank god.. Please dont come.. Who wants someone who thinks it is their rights to hurt other people feelings.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Hindus seem to be exempt. Forced Hindu "homecomings" are allowed.


LOL.. yea that is what the law says.. Right???
:roll:
 
Jason Menard
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I received some unsolicited mail from a religious institution yesterday, which made me think of this conversation. It included several pamphlets, many of which were describing their particular flavor of religion. They were telling me how I would be "saved" by accepting their saviour as Lord, and how those who don't accept Him will likely burn in Hell. They also made sure to mention the evil that is perpetrated through our upcoming Halloween celebrations. It's possible they will be going door-to-door to try to talk with people face-to-face.
I received this unsolicited mail, as did all my neighbors. Some of my neighbors are Protestants, some are Catholics, some Muslim, some Hindu, some Buddhists, some are aetheists or agnostics, and probably some others are religions that I haven't even thought of (it's none of my busniess and I don't care). Now I know the majority of us don't particularly appreciate such mailings, even finding them somewhat offensive in some cases, and are generally hostile to the purposes for which they are sent out. Many are probably even more unhappy with the idea of someone knocking on their door trying to sell them a new religion.
So if I understand what some of our enlightened friends have been saying there are several problems here.
For one, any successful conversions that result from such communications would be "forced", since they explicitly informed us of the rewards for joining their religion, and the potential penalties for rejecting it. Do you agree with this interpretation?
Second, as these forms of communications are deemed offensive by most of us, it should not be within their rights to communicate with us in such a matter since it is not protected speech. Since we find their message offensive and it might "hurt our feelings", plus the fact they are in essence telling us that our religion may be wrong or "less correct", they should not have the right to such speeh. Is this correct?
Third, since the people here would be somewhat hostile to their coming in our neighborhood and going door-to-door, plus the fact that through experience they likely know they often get a negative response from people, anything that may happen to them is their own fault, or at least they should have known better. Do you agree?
Fourth, let's assmue the majority of people in my neighborhood are Catholic. As you doubtless know through your extensive Western educations, Catholics have a very rich heritage and culture. There is a possibility that some here may resent the fact that another religion is coming in here trying to turn people away from the one true Church. We would see it as a threat to our Catholic culture. In fact, I have no doubt that anyone who did convert would have only converted because they have been duped by these people and their promises. Why else would they? We've all seen these tactics before and know they are dishonest. So therefore, it should be up to the rest of us to protect our culture and save our neighbors from making what the rest of us know is a bad choice, correct?
 
Anonymous
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Sankar
[As for "force" definition or anyother definition in a law, for your information, force can be in anyform. You can not define it. ]
I have defined it many years back
F = ma
Force = mass x acceleration.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

LOL.. yea that is what the law says.. Right???
:roll:


No, the law does not say that. That is simply how the law seems to be interpreted and carried out. I believe the common interpretation is that Hindus don't "convert", so therefore the law isn't generally applicable. Remember, returning to Hinduism isn't a conversion, merely a "homecoming".
 
Jason Menard
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Since you have all made it clear that you don't want Thomas there (you're afraid he might hurt your feelings), and if I can draw an analogy with something I believe P. Dessi said earlier, if Thomas does decide to travel there, it's at his own risk and he pretty much deserves anything that may happen to him, since he knows he is not wanted there?
 
Amitabh Sharma
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't see any point to this discussion anymore. We are going over the same ground.
I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India.
[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]


Please come
 
Anonymous
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"if I can draw an analogy with something I believe P. Dessi said earlier, if Thomas does decide to travel there, it's at his own risk"
Yeah.. He has to take care of his insurance. We cannot pay for his insurance.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Remember, returning to Hinduism isn't a conversion, merely a "homecoming".


The law never says that!
Some people are telling that, *returning to Hinduism* should be treated as an exception. But the law is clear.
It says "conversion of one religion to another religion" The same law applies to Hindus also.
Wake up Jason!
 
Anonymous
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I guess time has come to convert this thread from "open" to "Closed" .
 
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
[QB]We could write a letter to indian government and then close thread
Dear Indian Government,
You (sorry. of course its ) U haven't asked us, but we have good news for U. The mayority on javaranch thinks that forced conversion law is o.k. from human rights and national sovereignity standpoint.
There is a dissenting view held up by Thomas Paul and Jason Menard, both citizens of oldest representative democracy on world.
We are to tired to repeat. Just look here: https://coderanch.com/t/37667/md/Clash-Civilizations&p=
But mayority clearly says its o.k..
So, Indian Government, if there is no other work and nice weather in Dehly, U should consider to take day off.
regards
Javaranch. Meaningless Drivel Forum
P.S.
Pals, stay clean. O.k No corruption. o.k.
(Don't take this line too personally. We would add it in letters to any government)

 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India. Who wants to visit a country where people think its OK to attack someone for insulting them?


Thomas,
I know you are not too serious when you mentioned this statement.
Don't judge the culture, behaviour, situation of any country by some cruel incidents occured in that country. If everybody thinks the way you think, people might think that US is the country where people kill inncocent people without *any* reason (remember Sniper ?).
 
Anonymous
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In one of my earlier post , I gave the link of the news where 5 Dalits(Dalit means formerly untouchables/low caste) were killed by upper caste villagers near Gurgaon India,I don't know how many of you had read that news but here is its result:
Justice delayed
And this one is from timesofindia:
Jhajjar victim's kin denounce Hinduism
AKSHAYA MUKUL
TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2002 12:20:07 AM ]
GURGAON: Nearly 80 Dalits, including family members and relatives of the five Dalits lynched by villagers in Jhajjar on October 15, converted to Buddhism, Islam and Christianity from a single stage in a bylane next to to the Ravi Das mandir here on Sunday.
On October 15, the five Dalits were taking hides and a dead cow in a mini-truck from Farruknagar in Gurgaon district to Karnal when they stopped outside the Dulena police station and decided to skin the cow as they could not stand its smell. Thinking that the Dalits were skinning the cow alive, the villagers lynched them.
At Sunday's ceremony, Shankar Lal Khairalia, a Valmiki by caste, caused a flutter when he announced he would embrace Islam. By chosing to call himself Saddam Hussain, Khairalia scored a bigger symbolic point.
"I know how the western world is after Saddam. He is a hero," is all Khairalia could say seconds before he read the kalma along with Mohammad Rafiq Azad and got converted. Nearly 20 others followed Khairalia to Islam.
"I am in my senses. I challenge the VHP, Bajrang Dal and RSS to reconvert me. I will give up my life but never be a Hindu again," he said angrily. Silence prevailed as people from the nearby Hanuman temple watched the Dalits denounce and desert Hinduism.
The relatives of the Jhajjar victims were the first to be converted to Buddhism by priest Bhante Sheel Ratan. Udit Raj of the All-India SC/ST Confederation conferred 22 vows that Ambedkar had administered on October 14, 1956, to half a million Dalits.
Watching the conversion was filmmaker Mahesh Bhatt, who had come to express outrage over the Jhajjar incident.
As photographs of the bodies of Virender Singh and Dayachand � lynched on October 15 � made the rounds, the Dalits raised their pitch in anger.
"We do not want to be a part of religion where there is a premium for dead cow," said Chhatar Singh, nephew of Dayachand and cousin of Virender.
Udit Raj made a pointed attack on VHP leader Giriraj Kishore who reportedly said he had no regrets over the Dalits' killing.
"The system which has the cow and Giriraj Kishore is not worth it. We denounce it," he said. He even criticised what he termed as double standards of the Hindus when it comes to cows.
"The cow is referred to as the mother by caste Hindus; then why do they leave their mother on the street after it stops giving milk? Why do they sell their mother to the Dalits?" he asked.
Bhatt was, however, sceptical if the conversion would solve the problem. "This would not bring about any real change. The Dalits need to fight to become part of the mainstream," he said.
There was a minor scuffle when a Valmiki resented some comments by upper caste Hindus from nearby shops. But the situation was soon brought under control.
Dissent came from within too. A section of Valmiki youth openly termed the conversions a "sham". "This is a disgrace to every Valmiki. How will conversions change our daily existence? Can we stop doing business with caste Hindus? Will Muslims give their daughter to Khairalia in marriage?" asked Vijay Kumar.
Fellow dissenter Kishore Kumar had a more extreme solution to end the oppression by the upper castes: "Kill 50 for five and everything will be alright."
But it is difficult to tell if Sunday's conversion here could become a mini-Meenakshipuram or not. Yet, the event spurred by the Jhajjar lynching was the most potent symbol of protest that the subalterns registered 21 years after the 181 Dalit families converted to Islam in Tamil Nadu's Meenakshipuram

Conclusion:'Forced' conversion does not exist,Its the brutality,opression on dalits that make them renounce Hinduism and opt for another religion.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't see any point to this discussion anymore. We are going over the same ground.

I said this thing 200 post back.
I have learned one good thing from this.
You are late learner and bad learner
its OK to attack someone for insulting them?
Again, dont know about your society, in India, I live for my pride & respect. I have not given right to any one to insult me. You might be tolerant(how tolerant we all know by now ) and peace loving(by hurting others feeling ), but if you insult me then be ready to get slap.


[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Anonymous
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There is nothing wrong in changing one's religion for money. This is similar to changing citizenship. When the second one is acceptable why not the first one.

I feel that there is nothing that another religion offers that your religion doesn't.
 
Anonymous
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Judge
{
"I feel that there is nothing that another religion offers that your religion doesn't"
}
Yet,conversion takes place,that means there must be something else that makes convesion happen.If you read the news above ,you will get the reason why people convert.
Read the news,see the anger of those people who are challanging Hindu extremists.Also the see the thought provoking questions they have posed to Hindu extremists
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't see any point to this discussion anymore. We are going over the same ground.
I have learned one good thing from this. I will never go to India. Who wants to visit a country where people think its OK to attack someone for insulting them?
[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]



Thomas Paul : You just defeated the purpose of your argument all along . And yeah after this post you should not post in this thread at all.
Have a great Life in your country .
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Since you have all made it clear that you don't want Thomas there (you're afraid he might hurt your feelings), and if I can draw an analogy with something I believe P. Dessi said earlier, if Thomas does decide to travel there, it's at his own risk and he pretty much deserves anything that may happen to him, since he knows he is not wanted there?


3 Guesses for Who these people are that I am trying to talk about :
a) "Yes Thomas youre right"
b) "Yes Jason youre right"
Ha ha ha
I follow this up with a smiley face just to indicate that Im not serious......
 
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With all this talk of not going to India...
I mentioned earlier that I've never been to India, and that I might never go. That's a reality - I have only so many years and so many dollars - there are a LOT of places I haven't been to. If I ever get the opportunity to travel to India, what should I experience? Conversely, what should I avoid?
Here's a short list for anyone coming here:
- Newfoundland hospitality
- camping in the woods
- cross country skiing
- Niagra Falls
- Downtown Montreal & Toronto (even the drivers)
- Beaver Tails, lobster tails
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by <rahul rege>:

you will get the reason why people convert.


If you fail in one college, then even you take admission in another college you wont pass.
If you want to pass then you have to study, changing your college wont help you to pass a exam.
You should learn from great people like B R Ambedkar, who became what he wanted to became that is also without conversion and in that age when there WAS castesism.
Now you have much more options open to you. Rather than crying for being Dalit, educate your self with the new resources being provided by govt.
And I have felt you are very much talk like BSP guys, who have done nothing but only spread hatred among everyone.
Dont listen to politicians, they are same everywhere, they want chair only.
Use your own mind if you have one.
 
Anonymous
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See this
Translation & Summary:
In a village in Tamilnadu, India, where the majority of the people are
Catholics, few people converted to Pentecost (from RC) few days back.
The Catholic church has ordered the other villagers to keep away from
those
people who got converted. The church also has issued an order that the
people who got converted should not do any business in that village. No
shops in that village should do trade with those converted people.
Fishing,
the main business there, is prohibited for those people. Few of the
converted people who tried to go for fishing were attacked by the other
villagers. Their boats were attacked and burnt down.
"If people start following different beliefs in a same village, it will
lead
to communal clashes in the future. That's why the church is against the
conversion of the people", the church told when inquired about this
issue.
 
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