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software engineers life in india after 15 years

 
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hi all,

i want to know is software people continue his job more than 10 years. software people are working in more than 11 hours most of the days. more streesful life. is it possible doing the same stressful job after getting older. some people getting promotion and getting some manager posts. how do we plan our carrier growth in software developement. Any experience people can you share your experience.
 
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Why is this specific to India?

In most of the world, there are a few paths from being a programmer:
architect
manager
business analyst
 
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more streesful life.



QA track is less stressful
 
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Some even wish to stay as programmers 15-20 years down the line. Whether this is possible in India is a different question. I know it is, but not at all companies. It is a rare use case

QA track is less stressful



Not necessarily. Picture yourself sitting at a desk and a manager comes to you suddenly and says 'Hey X we need those new test scripts written for program Y by lunch. Also, make sure you execute those 126 manual test cases before you leave today.'
 
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I completely agree on this. Software engineers (or i should say developers/leads) lives are no more than pathetic these days in India as they are required to work atleast 12 hours daily due to the stringent deadlines.This affects their personal lives also not to mention the high stress levels faced by developers.

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Why is this specific to India?

In most of the world, there are a few paths from being a programmer:
architect
manager
business analyst



~Jeanne,

Top Indian IT service companies have more than 1 lakh employees.
So you can imagine the number of IT professionals which i believe is not the case in the western world.Also, since many IT service companies rely mostly on client's budget and profit factors,there is no other alternative for this. Typically, in a development project here in India, it would be a team of 5 people with 3 being freshers.So, the onus is on the experienced people to train the freshers and also complete the project on time which invariably leads to increased stress levels and long working hours. I also agree that people in US,UK etc would like to be passionate programmers for some 20 years and more. But, its not possible here (atleast in service companies )Also there is the social status factor here. Many people/friends/family members would love us to become team leads/project managers some 6 or 8 years down the lane.Nobody knows the value of being a Technical Architect or Solution Architect. Also there is very little scope for people to grow technically in service companies.But, i believe thats not the case over there.
 
Harshana Dias
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(atleast in service companies )



and the other type is..?
 
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Raghuraman Guruswamy wrote:

Top Indian IT service companies have more than 1 lakh employees.
So you can imagine the number of IT professionals which i believe is not the case in the western world.Also, since many IT service companies rely mostly on client's budget and profit factors,there is no other alternative for this. Typically, in a development project here in India, it would be a team of 5 people with 3 being freshers.So, the onus is on the experienced people to train the freshers and also complete the project on time which invariably leads to increased stress levels and long working hours. I also agree that people in US,UK etc would like to be passionate programmers for some 20 years and more. But, its not possible here (atleast in service companies )Also there is the social status factor here. Many people/friends/family members would love us to become team leads/project managers some 6 or 8 years down the lane.Nobody knows the value of being a Technical Architect or Solution Architect. Also there is very little scope for people to grow technically in service companies.But, i believe thats not the case over there.


Wrong:
There are not strigent deadlines. Only few companies artificially create it to exploit people.

Mostly people who sit late in the office waste lot of time. And their productivity is low. Even top service companies's senior management do not believe in late sittting. Have look at this article. http://www.millionface.com/l/working-late-in-the-office-by-narayan-murthy/
People who do creative work, their brain stops working when they work late hours frequently.

[Devaka: Edited to enable the link]
 
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I agree with Sagar that many people waste time during office hours and then sit late.... but many times sincere people work through out the day and when they start leaving from office after completing work they get calls from customers, managers asking for updates and status after office hours... managers or customers who work till late in the night expect their reportees to work till late night...
 
kannan vimal
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hi
Thanks for all of you who replied this post. hi still i am not clear is people able to continue his software developement work more than 15 years. how we make software people work as more interesting and continue for long life.
 
Deepak Bala
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Its unlikely you will do something for 15 years if you do not enjoy it

People choose to migrate to some other role or stay in the same based on their interest.
 
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This whole idea that 11-hour days are are good idea is an outdated relic from the 1800s manufacturing environment. What I call the "hamburger grinder" approach to development, where some bean-counting idiot decides that productive output is linearly proportional to hours worked, mistaking humans, whose productivity is variable for machines (such as meat grinders), whose productivity is not.

In a factory, after 12 hours or so, people would get so exhausted that they'd often literally fall into the machines. Assuming that the machine wasn't so big that it simply ground them up and kept operating, the whole process would have to be shut down to clear the works, which gave the factory owners at least some small incentive to limit workdays to a length where laborers weren't totally burned out. Even so, it was a long, hard-fought battle before the 8-hour workday became standard.

I long ago determined that on average day, my productive hours are from about 7:30 am to 2:30 pm. Ideally with a 30-minute nap plus time for lunch and an occasional break to allow me to remember what it's like to focus on a spot more than half a meter from the end of my nose. Unless there's something totally mindless that needs doing beyond that, the extra time that it takes to make up the standard 8-hour day is simply wasting my own time to provide a an illusion of productivity and not actually productive. I should also mention that in my locality, the mythical "9-to-5" job is just a myth. Lunch hour is not included, so it's more commonly 8-to-5. And since we're not geographically concentrated, it does take a full hour to go somewhere for lunch and eat it. It's not "idle time".

When I was much younger, I was taught that with ever-increasing productivity, we could all expect 30-hour work weeks eventually. However, I'm also old enough that it was still generally possible for a single person to earn enough to support an entire household, and a larger household than the prevailing size these days, to boot.

That ideal didn't come to pass. The effective earning power of people dropped, and the expectations of what was an "average" lifestyle soared to levels that are frankly unsustainable. The competitiveness of the American lifestyle meant that more and more people were willing to spend long hours on the job, meaning that merely to be competitive with the majority of one's peers in the labor market, the productivity gains we made were consumed - and then some - because everyone was trying to outdo everyone else, even if it meant sacrificing all the things that a good job was supposed to provide. Or at least the non-material ones. Now add in a crippling recession or 2 to keep everyone properly insecure.

Then the rules changed. Global communications and global transport made it possible for people who were geographically very distant to do the same work as local people. In and of itself, that wouldn't be a major consideration, but when those people had an average cost of living that was one tenth what it cost to get by locally, but not a concomitantly higher cost to deliver, this put further stress on workers to put in longer hours.

Now in theory, people in those less-expensive regions should be in an enviable position, since as the lowest-cost providers by far, they should be able to set their own conditions. However, in practice, precisely because their main appeal was being the lowest-cost provider - and because given the extra income, they too are being sucked into the material extravagance lifestyle, they can't demand a realistic workday either. Not because their actual productivity is going to be higher, but because the people they work for have the delusion that time-at-desk = productive time.

American workers are stressed to the cracking point, and have been for years, but there's nothing they can do. Asian workers don't have that concern. Very few places can undercut them on price, and the ones that can don't have anywhere near the same size labor pool. I'm not recommending blood-in-the streets industrial action here, but a simple push-back when the demands get too great would go a long ways. You can't after all get blood out of a stone, so why support the pretense. Part of being a professional is being someone who should be listened to as well as one who takes orders.

In the longer term, I think we're in for a major change. A lot of the contemporary business paradigm is based on unlimited growth, and that's not going to be true much longer. The US population is only growing because of immigration. Countries like Italy, Russia, and Japan are actually shrinking, resulting in both fewer workers and fewer consumers. We've been on the edge of Moore's law for an incredibly long time, but then we spent roughly 5 years more on the edge of the Housing Bubble than I expected before the whole thing finally came to an end. A lot of the things that gave us ever-increasing productivity are playing out. In China and India, wages have been rising substantially, breakthroughs in technology that have made for productivity are less of an issue, as we can now produce computers vastly more powerful than what most people need (even with Microsoft finding new ways to suck up resources for "eye candy"). Plus, if you extrapolated to the absurd extremes given enough productivity, everything would be free, and nobody would have to work to produce it, and then what would you do for a living? You'd need equally demanding consumption, and even if human beings had infinite time in which to consume, there are physical constraints on physical resources. Oil being merely one of the most visible examples.
 
Harshana Dias
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Tim..its really appreciating to see your point express in detail manner in good english..but you know some times the english you using is pretty hard to understand straightly.. you know english is not the native of lot of ranchers..like us in asia my kind suggestion is if possible please use simple english.
 
Jeanne Boyarsky
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Raghuraman,
Thank you for explaining why India is in the subject. That makes sense. We do have large companies here in the United States. Especially in the services/IT consulting arena. It's not a "factory for low cost" atmosphere with mostly newcomers though. And people do burn out here in the US too.
 
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kannan vimal wrote:hi
Thanks for all of you who replied this post. hi still i am not clear is people able to continue his software developement work more than 15 years. how we make software people work as more interesting and continue for long life.



This thread may help you.
 
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The working conditions of IT Professionals in India is indeed very pathetic... anyone who has had an onsite opportunity would agree with me on this... The problem basically rests with in us... Since we are the youth we don't prefer democratic motions and don't get into protests... I guess no one knew that there was a IT/BPO Union in India, and they are now presenting our case against longer working hours... We need to bring our voice to the minister for Communication and Information Technology, Mr. A. Raja... and even to the prime minister... Have a look at this article in the facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114896115224411... read thru it and if you feel you should be a part of it join and participate in the revolution Voice of India (For greater India)... We need to spread the message...
 
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Rahul Prabhat wrote:The working conditions of IT Professionals in India is indeed very pathetic... anyone who has had an onsite opportunity would agree with me on this... The problem basically rests with in us... Since we are the youth we don't prefer democratic motions and don't get into protests... I guess no one knew that there was a IT/BPO Union in India, and they are now presenting our case against longer working hours... We need to bring our voice to the minister for Communication and Information Technology, Mr. A. Raja... and even to the prime minister... Have a look at this article in the facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114896115224411... read thru it and if you feel you should be a part of it join and participate in the revolution Voice of India (For greater India)... We need to spread the message...



How true...I was really wondering why there can be no unions for IT industry....The other sectors especially those in public sector have got the unions which fights for employees (well atleast in theory and most do). In IT every employee is on his own..If he has any problem, quitting is the only solution..because the moment the management sees that you are grouping people they give a red sign to you...Acknowledging that no one stops any one from leaving the company, I also wish we had some one speaks for us..And yes, I never knew if there was a union for IT employees..
 
Rahul Prabhat
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Ram Korutla wrote:

Rahul Prabhat wrote:The working conditions of IT Professionals in India is indeed very pathetic... anyone who has had an onsite opportunity would agree with me on this... The problem basically rests with in us... Since we are the youth we don't prefer democratic motions and don't get into protests... I guess no one knew that there was a IT/BPO Union in India, and they are now presenting our case against longer working hours... We need to bring our voice to the minister for Communication and Information Technology, Mr. A. Raja... and even to the prime minister... Have a look at this article in the facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114896115224411... read thru it and if you feel you should be a part of it join and participate in the revolution Voice of India (For greater India)... We need to spread the message...



How true...I was really wondering why there can be no unions for IT industry....The other sectors especially those in public sector have got the unions which fights for employees (well atleast in theory and most do). In IT every employee is on his own..If he has any problem, quitting is the only solution..because the moment the management sees that you are grouping people they give a red sign to you...Acknowledging that no one stops any one from leaving the company, I also wish we had some one speaks for us..And yes, I never knew if there was a union for IT employees..



I just want to start it off so that we get a better recognition... glad to see you agree to my sentiments... Please do spead the message, blog, sms, orkut, facebook etc. to get us a greater audience and finally get the recognition we deserve...
 
Manikandan Swaminathan
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Finally, a sigh of relief for many IT professionals in India.But,this needs to be recognised by the Govt of India and most importantly the NASSCOM. Its high time we people need a voice to speak aganist the management.
 
Rahul Prabhat
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Raghuraman Guruswamy wrote:Finally, a sigh of relief for many IT professionals in India.But,this needs to be recognised by the Govt of India and most importantly the NASSCOM. Its high time we people need a voice to speak aganist the management.



This IT/BPO union came in to effect somewhere around 2008... and they started their fight against longer working hour since then but no voice has been heard... better more we didn't even know they exist... Now due to the rather recent developments on the official increase in working hours, they have started their fight again... but no idea how far it will go unless we all stick together and fight together...

Please guys Blog, email, sms, orkut, facebook and spread the message... I have already created a facebook group... i urge all you guys to join and spread the message
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114896115224411
 
Deepak Bala
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A union ?

Unions usually apply to unskilled labor where individual contribution and innovation are not in the picture. When a project is in soup you have no other option than to work late and get it done. If a person is working late everyday then something is wrong with that person or the company. Either the employee is being overworked or need to update his/her skills and productivity. The other reason which is an exception is a startup. Startups need to work harder to get a product up and running.

Unions in the IT industry are counter productive. Personally I find the very mention of 'union' and 'IT' mentioned in the same sentence laughable.
 
Rahul Prabhat
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Deepak Bala wrote:A union ?

Unions usually apply to unskilled labor where individual contribution and innovation are not in the picture. When a project is in soup you have no other option than to work late and get it done. If a person is working late everyday then something is wrong with that person or the company. Either the employee is being overworked or need to update his/her skills and productivity. The other reason which is an exception is a startup. Startups need to work harder to get a product up and running.

Unions in the IT industry are counter productive. Personally I find the very mention of 'union' and 'IT' mentioned in the same sentence laughable.



Very interesting portrayal of your understanding... The basic concept of a "Union" in this context is the joining of IT and BPO together for a cause (more generally known as UNITES - Union for Information & Technology Enabled Services). I think you were glamorized by the glorified use of union in the old Indian terminology pertaining to factories...

And then about your mention of unskilled labour vs skilled labour, I guess you also sustain your indication that innovation and stress are part of the life of IT/BPO professionals. All the more reason that a proper labour law need to be implemented for those in our field.

If a person is working late every day then the recruitment agency (or company) failed to identify the correct employee with the caliber to do the work at hand

Startup companies, here i agree to you, even in many countries there are specific rules for them, they differentiate also based on companies having less than 10 employees and so on.

Unions are not counter productive, I guess you didn't read about the 4-day experiment done in Utah, USA on productivity (read the details in the facebook group link posted http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114896115224411... you don't need to join the group to read). Again longer hours don't increase productivity, they just decrease them. So in effect, UNITES is trying indirectly to increase productivity.

finally I don't think a movement to better the conditions of IT/BPO professionals in India a laughable matter!!!
 
Deepak Bala
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I think you were glamorized by the glorified use of union in the old Indian terminology pertaining to factories...



No

innovation and stress are part of the life of IT/BPO professionals



Debatable.

If a person is working late every day then the recruitment agency (or company) failed to identify the correct employee with the caliber to do the work at hand



And a union will solve this ?

even in many countries there are specific rules for them



There are rules for how many hours a person is allowed to work in a startup ? Where is this ?

Capping the number of hours you get to work in a software company will not work. You simply need to spend extra time some days.

I don't think a movement to better the conditions of IT/BPO professionals in India a laughable matter



I never said that. I said union and IT used in the same sentence is laughable. And it still is.
 
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