OS X Lion and Java JDK

[David Garratt]

I've read a number of articles on this and appreciate that Apple have effectively washed their hands of Java. I also understand that it's won't be part of Lion.

So if I upgrade from Snow Leopard to LION what happens to the JDK that is currently installed ? Is it deleted, if no will it still run ?

Some people have said that if OS X see's your trying to run java it will download the runtime system for you ? Well I need the JDK - so what's happening ?

Can anyone fill in some gaps in my knowledge on this ? As a Java developer I definitely won't be upgrading to Lion if I can't get a reliable JDK working on it.

Thanks in advance

Dave

[Mark Spritzler]

Dave that has been said many time over and over through the years for all the versions of OSX and sometimes in between and it is never ever true. To me it is just FUD that people say to panic people, but Apple never ever stops integrating Java into their OSs, or the ability to install Java.

So what you are reading is false and will almost always be false. To me it has become an urban legend.

Mark

[Ulf Dittmer]

I disagree pretty much completely with what Mark said. To the contrary, Apple has already stated that they WILL stop integrating Java into OS X, and leave that to the OpenJDK project.

This time around things are quite different; Apple has announced that they will stop developing Java for OS X, and in which shape and form it will be part of Lion is -to my knowledge- still up in the air. They have donated large chunks of it (not all of it) to the OpenJDK project; whether that will be ready in time for Lion, and if so, ship with Lion, or whether the current Apple Java will still be part of it, I have yet to hear a definite word about.

I assume that *some* usable Java implementation will be available for Lion, but I think for most of David's question the answers are far from clear at this point.

[David Garratt]

Well at least I'm not alone in the confusion. I think I will leave Lion well alone until things become clearer. Of course if anyone is part of the Apple Developer or OpenJDK team and can contribute more information without breaking any confidences it would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

[Mark Spritzler]

Ulf Dittmer wrote:I disagree pretty much completely with what Mark said. To the contrary, Apple has already stated that they WILL stop integrating Java into OS X, and leave that to the OpenJDK project.

This time around things are quite different; Apple has announced that they will stop developing Java for OS X, and in which shape and form it will be part of Lion is -to my knowledge- still up in the air. They have donated large chunks of it (not all of it) to the OpenJDK project; whether that will be ready in time for Lion, and if so, ship with Lion, or whether the current Apple Java will still be part of it, I have yet to hear a definite word about.

I assume that *some* usable Java implementation will be available for Lion, but I think for most of David's question the answers are far from clear at this point.

But I still think the point of the FUD and myth is always that some form a Java will not be included, and I think Apple knows very well that many developers use Mac with Java and really really doubt that those rumors will ever be true. Yes they can stop writing their own Java implementation, but by doing that they will just include some form of a JDK.

Meaning I have heard some form of this story many times over the year and they have never been true before, so it is like crying wolf. It doesn't mean that in the future Apple can choose not to include it, but I doubt that will happen.

Mark

[Ulf Dittmer]

Well, saying "I doubt that will happen" (which is pretty much what I said, too) is rather different from saying "Apple never ever stops integrating Java into their OSs".

[Mark Spritzler]

Ulf Dittmer wrote:Well, saying "I doubt that will happen" (which is pretty much what I said, too) is rather different from saying "Apple never ever stops integrating Java into their OSs".

Taking today and all the past that statement would be true. I thought in my first post I wrote that I don't expect them to ever stop integrating Java into their OS, they still have that option to do that in the future, but I really doubt it.

Mark

[Christopher Laurenzano]

I'd like to ask a question here. I'm learning Java and using my Mac (it's not why I bought one, but I just got into it) -- I was surprised that OS X Leopard and Snow Leopard came with a JDK. My question is this: If OS X Lion doesn't have the JDK with it, then will it be possible for me to get the latest version of it for Mac OS? And if so, where? Is it possible that no one will be able to do any programming in Java on Mac anymore? I refuse to go back to a PC but I'd really like to learn programming, just for myself. Please help. I'm just a beginner and am not familiar with a lot of the terms being bandied about on the sites I've come across -- I just want to learn the language right now -- learning how to use in IDE while learning a language is too much to do.

[Mark Spritzler]

Christopher Laurenzano wrote: My question is this: If OS X Lion doesn't have the JDK with it.

Again, there is no proof that it won't have a JDK on it, and more likely that it will have some JDK on it.

Mark

[Christopher Laurenzano]

I understand that it may very well come with it. But if it doesn't, would I be able to get it for OS X? That's what I wanted to know.

[Ulf Dittmer]

There is no definitive answer on that yet. As Mark said, the odds are good, but right now you will have to judge for yourself; start reading at http://openjdk.java.net/projects/macosx-port/ for details.

[marc weber]

I can state with absolute certainty: I don't know.

[Ulf Dittmer]

Now we know for sure: it's available from day 1 as a separate download.

[marc weber]

Ulf Dittmer wrote:Now we know for sure: it's available from day 1 as a separate download.

That's the JRE. For a JDK on Lion, we'll need OpenJDK, right?

[Christopher Laurenzano]

Marc --

When i go to Terminal and type

java -version

I get this:

java version "1.6.0_26"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_26-b03-384-10M3425)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.1-b02-384, mixed mode)

and I can compile and run my java programs. I'm using Snow Leopard right now. I'm guessing if Apple is offering the SE version 6 for OS X Lion it's the same thing. But I'm not an expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ulf Dittmer]

marc weber wrote:That's the JRE. For a JDK on Lion, we'll need OpenJDK, right?

That's a good question. So far, Apple's Java has always been a JDK, there never was a JRE. I suppose that might have changed now.

Taking a quick peek into the .pkg file, it looks like it will install the full set of binaries (javac, jstat, jhat, jvisualvm etc.) along with their man pages. And the main file is still called "1.6.0.jdk" - so it would seem to be the same thing that is now available for Snow Leopard.

Christopher Laurenzano wrote:I'm guessing if Apple is offering the SE version 6 for OS X Lion it's the same thing. But I'm not an expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, that is the question that didn't have a clear answer, but it now looks (to me) that it is indeed the same.

[Christopher Laurenzano]

Ulf --

Can you tell me how to open that .pkg file -- just out of curiosity? I'm just a novice.

[Ulf Dittmer]

I used Pacifist: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/6812/pacifist. Only just downloaded it, and it worked fine.

[Mark Spritzler]

Yep, call me an Uncle's Monkey, I was wrong. I had hear wolf cried for so many times, that I wouldn't believe they would not include Java.

Mark

[Bear Bibeault]

I'd almost consider it "included". One of my startup programs needed it, so it was only one click away.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Bear Bibeault wrote:I'd almost consider it "included". One of my startup programs needed it, so it was only one click away.

You aren't kidding. I launched Eclipse, the machine told me it needed to install Java and it went and did it.

Going to need to figure out how to install a later version of Java (7) this weekend, but today things are good.

[Ulf Dittmer]

And now there's a preview of Java 7 for OS X 10.6 and 10.7: http://jdk7.java.net/macportpreview/