Are people born as a Programmer or a Novice can also be a programmer

[Vishal Hegde]

Are people born as a Programmer or a Novice can also be a programmer..Simply by wrking in office can one be a good Programmer or theortical knowledge is really needed? Since we cant say what we are actually reading we may not actually implement in wrkplace?

[Campbell Ritchie]

I would have thought you need both theory and practice for programming.
No, people are not born programmers but there are some people who seem to have the mindset which makes it easier for them to learn it.

[Henry Wong]

I remember, a few years ago, reading an article about programmers, and how there is a "double bell curve".

To clarify, with any task, statistically, it falls into a bell curve. There will be a small number of people who are really good at it. There will be a small number of people who are really bad at it. And on average, the majority will fall in the middle.

With programming, this is also true. However, the article mentions that there seems to be a second bell curve (on the bad side), with lots of people who are really bad at it. This implies that there is something more going on, that is not related to training or experience, etc. It seems to imply that there will be people who can't code, and can't be taught to code. It's was an interesting article, hopefully, someone will find it again for me...

Henry

[Tony Docherty]

Can't find the original paper but found this article which refers to it.

EDIT: There is a link half way down the page that could be the article you read, see: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf

[Junilu Lacar]

A few related things - sorry for the ones where I can't give references, they are just things I recall reading in the past.

* 1 out 10 programmers are an order of magnitude more productive (or better?) than the rest. -- I tend to agree with this since in my experience, I have only been able to hire 1 out of 10 people I interview.

* Dunning-Kruger effect: unskilled individuals tend to think they're better than they really are. Conversely, skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence. I seem to remember Linus Torvalds being quoted as saying something to the same effect as the first part: that most programmers think they're in the top 10% even though they're really not.

* The 1:10 ratio seems to apply to just about any profession, some moreso than others. Only a very small fraction of the population are top-rated and highly-paid professional athletes, musicians, actors, artists, etc. That doesn't mean that the rest of us have no business in sports, music, theater, arts, etc. We're simply not in the same league as the "best of the best". Yet we can still participate. Being "in the middle of the pack" doesn't necessarily mean we're mediocre. We do what we can and try to have fun doing it. If we can somehow get paid to do these things, that's great.

* I see the Craftsmanship movement in software development picking up steam. See #CraftConf and you may notice that a couple of recent Ranch guest authors, Simon Brown and Sandro Mancuso, were there to give presentations. See also Uncle Bob's Eighth Light. It's not enough to have aptitude and talent, you have to keep honing and developing your skills, too.

Edit: In answer to the OP's question, we all have to start somewhere. The skills and knowledge you need to be a successful programmer are many and varied but you can't let that overwhelm you. Yes, you need to know technology and you need to know the theory behind it. My approach has been to understand the underlying principles first. I find that principles are far more portable than knowledge of specific technologies. And now more than ever, it's good to know how to work with other people. Software development is seldom a solo effort anymore and knowing how to collaborate with others will go a long way in making you a better and more effective developer.

[Vishal Hegde]

Above statements mentioned are well and good but what about people who have worked in various Support Jobs roles in IT like in windows,Help desk,web Support,testing etc ... And learning something by work experience and that learning having no clarity...who initially had interest to learn programming but due to different Multiple roles or sometimes working under wrong Team Lead who always finding faults and is not helping or mentoring Team Members or just by some Horrible Politics or sometimes to Sustain your Family needs you just cant work as a programmer at lower salary in initial phase.

What will be the mindset of such people who already have experienced so many things in Information Technology besides Programming

[Junilu Lacar]

Vishal Hegde wrote:learning something by work experience and that learning having no clarity...who initially had interest to learn programming but due to different Multiple roles or sometimes working under wrong Team Lead who always finding faults and is not helping or mentoring Team Members or just by some Horrible Politics or sometimes to Sustain your Family needs you just cant work as a programmer at lower salary in initial phase.

What will be the mindset of such people who already have experienced so many things in Information Technology besides Programming

Well, what would be the mindset of a nurse who wants to be a doctor? It's kind of the same thing, right? You still need to learn what it takes to be a doctor. Likewise, even if you've had experience in the IT field doing jobs other than programming, you still need to learn what it takes to be a good programmer. The good thing is that you already have some (somewhat) related experience from which you can draw some insights later on. External factors aside -- because it's really up to you to deal with those -- it all depends on your will and determination to become a programmer. A bit of luck certainly won't hurt, I suppose.

I don't know, I consider myself extremely fortunate to be where I am today but I know I also had to work very hard to get here, from taking a risk and quitting my entry-level job in the Philippines to strike out on my own as a freelancer, to throwing all caution to the wind and going to Singapore without any guarantee of a job, to rolling the dice and migrating to the US with a young family and a not-so-great job offer. Yes, there are sacrifices you have to make but if you do your best, it usually works out in the end. But time waits for no one so either you commit and go for it or vacillate and just be stuck wondering what it would be like.

Good luck.

[Mark Yevgeny]

Is office politics there in every office ?

[Junilu Lacar]

Arun Giridhar wrote:Is office politics there in every office ?

Some more than others but wherever you have any sort of hierarchy of people, there will almost inevitably be some politics.

[Campbell Ritchie]

Can we stick to the official subject of this thread please.

[Henry Wong]

Vishal Hegde wrote:Above statements mentioned are well and good but what about people who have worked in various Support Jobs roles in IT like in windows,Help desk,web Support,testing etc ... And learning something by work experience and that learning having no clarity...who initially had interest to learn programming but due to different Multiple roles or sometimes working under wrong Team Lead who always finding faults and is not helping or mentoring Team Members or just by some Horrible Politics or sometimes to Sustain your Family needs you just cant work as a programmer at lower salary in initial phase.

What will be the mindset of such people who already have experienced so many things in Information Technology besides Programming

In reading this post, it looks like the OP chose to be in support -- and made that choice for family reasons. In my opinion, this is a good choice. The OP chose his family over his desired career. It also looks like the OP is still choosing his family over his career. Again, in my opinion, this is a good choice. This is an honorable choice. Sometimes, you have to choose money (for your family) over career, and family is important.

On the other hand, in reading this post, it looks like the OP lost interest in learning, cannot seem to learn (no clarity) certain topics, switching between lots of roles, and have issues working with others (particularly managers). This is likely because the OP is in a job that he doesn't want to be in. And this is *not* a good thing.


The mindset? The OP made the choice for family. And I think that should be not be forgotten... because quite frankly, if you hate the job, you can't be good at it, and you will lose it. And this will hurt the family that is depending on you.

Henry

[Junilu Lacar]

Henry Wong wrote:The OP made the choice for family. And I think that should be not be forgotten... because quite frankly, if you hate the job, you can't be good at it, and you will lose it. And this will hurt the family that is depending on you.

But therein lies the dilemma, doesn't it? If you are the main or sole provider, then there's not much of a choice and you're somewhat in a Catch-22 situation. You hate your job and there's something else you're more interested in doing. You can't be good at your current job because you hate it, therefore there is little prospect of promotion and earning more. However, you can't just jump to the other job you're more interested in either because you don't have experience in it and you'd have to take less money. Without some sacrifice, which of course the family will have to bear the consequences, you will be stuck in a dead-end job. The other thing, too, is you would start resenting that you can't just up and leave your current job and, perhaps unconsciously, resent your family as well. Not to be an armchair psychologist or anything but I have in one or another been in similar positions in the past and it wasn't pleasant. You need a family that is strong and willing to make the necessary sacrifices. If you're not happy, then your family will tend to feel that and the dissatisfaction can spread and cause a lot of tension.

[Junilu Lacar]

@OP: Here's the kind of mindset that may help you overcome whatever obstacles or difficulties you see are in the way of you pursuing your interests: https://youtu.be/1zeb-k-XzaI - this guy overcame tremendous odds against him.

[Campbell Ritchie]

The difference between the problems Nick Vujicic faces and problems with programming is that everybody can see that Nick Vujicic faces problems.

[Jayesh A Lalwani]

Henry Wong wrote:
I remember, a few years ago, reading an article about programmers, and how there is a "double bell curve".

To clarify, with any task, statistically, it falls into a bell curve. There will be a small number of people who are really good at it. There will be a small number of people who are really bad at it. And on average, the majority will fall in the middle.

With programming, this is also true. However, the article mentions that there seems to be a second bell curve (on the bad side), with lots of people who are really bad at it. This implies that there is something more going on, that is not related to training or experience, etc. It seems to imply that there will be people who can't code, and can't be taught to code. It's was an interesting article, hopefully, someone will find it again for me...

Henry

Point to note that the paper that made the claim was retracted. The researcher was under the influence of anti-depressants, and didn't use the proper methodology. Also, the paper started making rounds of the software development community without being vetted by other researchers(Thanks, coding horror!)

The "findings" of the research were readily accepted by the development community, because they kind of feel true to most of us who have been in this industry. It kind of validates what we feel to be true. Personally, I feel that those findings will be proven true in the future. However, claiming that the findings are already proven to be true is crossing a line, however.

We are engineers. We are supposed to be better than that.

[Henry Wong]

Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:Point to note that the paper that made the claim was retracted. The researcher was under the influence of anti-depressants, and didn't use the proper methodology...

Thanks. This is good to know. I really hate it when misinformation gets propagated.

Henry

[Junilu Lacar]

Campbell Ritchie wrote:The difference between the problems Nick Vujicic faces and problems with programming is that everybody can see that Nick Vujicic faces problems.

Not sure I get your point, Campbell. My point is that Nick has a very positive outlook and his mindset seems to be that of "No worries, I can handle that!" rather than "Oh, that's too much for me to overcome." Not sure what difference it makes whether other people can see that he has problems vs them seeing or not that we have problems with programming. Are you coming from the point of view that other people would be more willing to help Nick out because he so obviously has huge physical challenges?

Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:Point to note that the paper that made the claim was retracted... We are engineers. We are supposed to be better than that.

In the writeup about the retraction, it was mentioned that we might want to reexamine teaching methods. I would agree that certain ways of teaching are better than others. But as I have said before, there are always two or more sides to the story. Another side to this story are the students themselves and how they approach learning. We see this at the Ranch all the time: posters seem to be "trapped" by the material they've been given in the classroom, as if they were cut off from search engines and the numerous other sources of information that are available at the click of a button. They seem to prefer to be told how to do things rather than discover for themselves how it should be done. This is all mindset. To Jayesh's point, the better engineers will have a better mindset than this. We need to have kaizen, the mindset of wanting to seek continuous improvement.

[Campbell Ritchie]

What I meant is that if people have difficulty understanding programs, that other people may not perceive those problems. In the case of Nick Vujicic, nobody has any difficulty perceiving his difficulties.

Maybe other people are willing to help NV. But he seems to have decided to do things for himself, as other people do. Presumably that reduces the risk of people patronising NV because of his difficulty. Agree with you that NV's mindset has always been to strive to do the most he can. He is by no means unique; many other people also overcome disabilities, including soldiers who have lost limbs. As you say, it requires motivation.

Yes, we do see people on this website who seem trapped by their mentality and don't want to find things for themselves. We also, unfortunately, see people who appear to be told to do things in what we think suboptimal ways. I sometimes wonder what they are being taught.
Fortunately we also see people who go beyond their set teaching and are willing to learn and think around the subject. Those are the people who will do well, and it is a pleasure to help them.

************************************************************
I also didn't know that the Bornat and Dehnani paper had been retracted; kudos to the reviewers who refused to print it.

[Junilu Lacar]

Campbell Ritchie wrote:Fortunately we also see people who go beyond their set teaching and are willing to learn and think around the subject. Those are the people who will do well, and it is a pleasure to help them.

Yes, these occasional gems make it worth the wait. I bet if we did an analysis, we'd be pretty close to the 1:10 ratio I mentioned earlier.

[Campbell Ritchie]

It may be that a lot of the good people seem to get on well with their courses and don't perceive the need to join a forum. I think they are missing out on discussion with lots of experienced people.

[Tushar Goel]

Hi Vishal, You need to have patience. I have had same phase of life as you are having. Same horrible bosses, non interested jobs, family requirement.
What i did, reading side by side after office hours or whenever i got a time. Start learning from internet and various other sources which i can afford.
Though it took long time but the end result is good. I am now doing the thing what i want to do from my 1st day of my career starting (Almost 7 years back).
Atleast i got some start and with keep practising i hope i will cover my lost 7 years.

So the crux is, keep patience and keep practising.