Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:One of the problems with college education is that, even though it's great in teaching you concepts, it's not great in teaching you the latest and greatest technologies. The idea behind coding bootcamps is that they are intended to bring technologists upto speed on latest technology. They are intended to be add-ons to a "real" university education. Of course, there is nothing stopping people from non-CS backgrounds from taking those courses and claiming that they know programming. Also, there are several bootcamps that are targeted towards people from non-CS backgrounds
Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:I think there are pros and cons to this. Bootcamps might teach you how to bang out code. They can't teach you how to do it the right way. They can;t teach you how to design. They can't teach you how to write maintainable code. More importantly, they can't teach you how to learn. The biggest advantage that a CS related university degree gives you is that it teaches you enough fundamentals that you can start self-teaching after college.
What we need is people who can bang out code, which is what bootcamps provide.
We have plenty of engineers who do technicians work. Seriously, do you need a 6 year degree to write a CRUD web app? If all you do your entire life is make CRUD web apps in one language, then your 4-6 year degree is a waste. A kid could do that after attending a 3 month bootcamp in web development!
S/he may not know how everything works, but is able to put things together, in much the same manner as your plumber may not really know what went into the design of your plumbing, but can put a sink together.
I think bootcamps are good. They generate coding monkeys. Coding monkeys are good. They allow engineers to focus on the bigger picture.
Luke Kolin wrote:
I disagree. We need people who can write good code, and there's a tremendous shortage of those types of people. It takes more than just framework authors. For 20 years we've been talking about mechanisms that allow non-coders to write good code, and we're no closer to solving that problem. People aren't very good at breaking problems down into discrete logical steps and optimizing them - that's true with processes in general, not just software.
Sure, if your CRUD app has 20 users. I saw a lot of developers who wrote functional code that completely failed once it had any appreciable levels of load or concurrency.
Are you suggesting that there is no practical difference in skill between an experienced and novice plumber?
Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:I see being able to design good software as a skill that is orthogonal to converting design into code. You don;t need a 4-6 years degree from an engineering school to write good code. You need that degree to do design and solve problems. We need engineers to do the design.
We need coders to do the code. Right now, we take engineers and all they do is code, which is a big waste of their engineering degree
I'm talking about engineers focusing on solving the hard problems and doing the design while coders do the grunt work Right now, I can have a developer bang out a REST service using Spring pretty easily. I can have another Java script developer consume that REST service produce a good looking UI.
I, as an engineer, can focus on the design aspects, the DB design, designing the interfaces between the UI and the REST service, sizing out the architecture for scalability and efficiency, etc, without writing a line of code. I can do all the "figuring out". I use engineers to bang out this code. Why do I use engineers? Because that's what is available. These guys can do a lot more. It's a waste of their education. I could use coders who are trained in bootcamps to do the same job.
Right now, in the IT industry we train people to be construction engineers and then ask them to do plumbing jobs. Then the engineers cannot do plumbing jobs because they haven't had too much experience swinging a wrench in school, we send them to wrench-swinging "bootcamps". Then people who have never gone to construction engineering school show up and learn how to swing wrenches as well as the engineers, we sneer at them because that's the only way we can justify the education loan.