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class key word in java, SQL Table, Positive Data & negative Data in Computer Programming, Interview

 
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Hello All, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvenience If any. Please look in to my below queries. These queries are copied from LinkedIn post. Please consider them. Please provide your feedback. Thank you

a) How c++ class key word, java class key word successful for many years? Please guide me . Thank you


b) Why class key word created in Java compared to Table keyword in SQL? Please guide me. Table of Data is realistic approach as per Real world system. class of Data is not realistic. I feel Java needs key word change for class. I not able to communicate this problem in 1999-2000 during the C++ lesson in B.E Mechanical. Still deep discussion not done by any one for Table key word in SQL vs class key word in Java. In 2006, I worked in Object Relational mapping software Hibernate. Please provide your feedback. Thank you  

c) In job interviews, recruiters & Technical panel members are not able to discuss about class key word. In LinkedIn post also I am not getting any response. Lot of delay is happening for my next Employment & Job. Please help. Thank you  

d) In job interviews, recruiters & Technical panel members are not able to discuss more about class key word Vs SQL Table keyword. Lot of delay happen in interview. They also not able to predict the Java class keyword future, java with Table keyword in future. In LinkedIn post also I am not getting any response. Lot of delay is happening for my next Employment & Job. Please help. Thank you  

e) In School level Mathematics, Graph is used for representing positive data, negative data in +X axis, -X axis, +Y Axis, -Y axis for numbers. 4 Quadrants used for covering 360 degree in Graph. Similarly in Text data or String Data, etc positive data handling, negative data handling not discussed. I am thinking about Positive attitude, Negative attitude of Programmer, Program end user related Positive attitude, Negative attitude etc. Software Programming languages such as BASIC, C, C++, Java etc not handles the Human Positive Attitude, Human Negative Attitude, Safety and Security aspects of Human in Programming & Application usage. I came to know about Business Process Management (BPM) or BPEL linked to Human activity in Process. I feel from 1996 to till date Computer Languages & Software Programming not takes care of Human Safety and Security. Managing Human connection to Computers, Computer Programs & Applications needs to Managed in Proper way. Thank you  

f) Interview Panel is not reading my resume & LinkedIn profile properly. Lot of Delay happening in Employment. Please help me for faster Employment

Thank you
 
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"class" vs "TABLE"

In object oriented languages an object has both data (fields) and behavior (methods). The definitions of fields and methods are specified in a "class".

Internally, a table only has data, you can apply SQL operations to that data but those are not part of the data themselves.

Classes have a much richer ability to express complex relationships. Tables can usually emulate those relationships but it often involves multiple tables and SQL code to enforce rules linking data within tables or between tables. Tables themselves are essentially distilled to rows and columns. Again, the SQL is not part of the table.

They are different tools for different jobs. Trying to do a job with the wrong tool is an exercise in futility. Fortunately Object Relational Mapping tools exist to bridge the gap.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Please check all the queries again If possible. Thank you
 
Carey Brown
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That's my two cents. Maybe others will chime in.
 
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I'll take a stab at one or two of these because they seem to be interesting questions.

f) Interview Panel is not reading my resume & LinkedIn profile properly. Lot of Delay happening in Employment. Please help me for faster Employment



Some people place a lot of attention on seeing recent experience that will be seen as relevant by hiring managers looking at a lot of resumes in a hurry.
I am often asked by recruiters to touch up or specialize a resume they have seen highlighting things that they know that the people making the hiring decisions are looking for.
While I am not willing to "highlight" something that I have no experience in, it is often true that there are things I know quite a lot about that are not highlighted on my resume and wouldn't show up in any of the dreadful scanning checks that some places use to reduce the number of resumes being read by actual humans.

It is not entirely clear what you mean by the term you are using in this post: "Interview Panel".
I am guessing you mean those that are in charge of doing initial screening to see which candidates they are even interested in calling for a pre-screening phone discussion, prior to any "technical challenges", "coding challenges" or technical interviews with engineering staff?

In my experience, the key to getting thru that first pre-screening call, often done with HR is to sound like you have a lot of technical experience and are very easy to communicate with.  This means checking their level of technical knowledge to prevent you inappropriately going into too much technical detail in your answers, and that it is easy for business-side people to communicate with you in whatever language the company does their business in (often, but not always, English).

The other questions sound like you are already getting thru to the technical interview where you are talking to a software engineer.  The correct way to speak there is considerably different than the pre-screening with a non-technical person.

None of the above is specific to Java, and this might not be the best forum at CodeRanch to proceed further in for that line of questioning.  There are others like this:
https://coderanch.com/f/37/Jobs

and the adjacent "Soft Skills" ones that might be better suited.
 
Jesse Silverman
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a) How c++ class key word, java class key word successful for many years? Please guide me . Thank you


b) Why class key word created in Java compared to Table keyword in SQL? Please guide me. Table of Data is realistic approach as per Real world system. class of Data is not realistic. I feel Java needs key word change for class. I not able to communicate this problem in 1999-2000 during the C++ lesson in B.E Mechanical. Still deep discussion not done by any one for Table key word in SQL vs class key word in Java. In 2006, I worked in Object Relational mapping software Hibernate. Please provide your feedback. Thank you  

c) In job interviews, recruiters & Technical panel members are not able to discuss about class key word. In LinkedIn post also I am not getting any response. Lot of delay is happening for my next Employment & Job. Please help. Thank you  



I certainly don't see the class key word or class type going away any time soon, or even becoming rare.

The most relevant trend in Modern Java that I am thinking of is "Record Classes" or just record for short.

Learning about those may be helpful to you, suggesting that Java, C++ or C# "should" stop using the class keyword will not be.

You may be getting low response rates because a lot of people are having difficulty understanding exactly what your questions are.  There are some very patient and kind volunteers at this forum who may help you refine your terminology and get your points across more clearly.

As an example of a sentence that is filled with valid English words and presumably valid grammar, yet one that I can only guess at what it is saying, let's take this one:

In job interviews, recruiters & Technical panel members are not able to discuss about class key word.


That is simply untrue, I have had many technical panel members doing Engineering interviews that are most certainly quite able to discuss these issues.
I may not understand what that sentence means to say.

I had already responded about how the best way to speak to highly technically-trained engineering team members is very different to the most effective way to speak to technical recruiters, who, despite their title, may have never written a line of code in their lives, or taken an OOAD course, etc.

e) In School level Mathematics, Graph is used for representing positive data, negative data in +X axis, -X axis, +Y Axis, -Y axis for numbers. 4 Quadrants used for covering 360 degree in Graph. Similarly in Text data or String Data, etc positive data handling, negative data handling not discussed. I am thinking about Positive attitude, Negative attitude of Programmer, Program end user related Positive attitude, Negative attitude etc. Software Programming languages such as BASIC, C, C++, Java etc not handles the Human Positive Attitude, Human Negative Attitude, Safety and Security aspects of Human in Programming & Application usage. I came to know about Business Process Management (BPM) or BPEL linked to Human activity in Process. I feel from 1996 to till date Computer Languages & Software Programming not takes care of Human Safety and Security. Managing Human connection to Computers, Computer Programs & Applications needs to Managed in Proper way. Thank you  



There are a couple of issues here.  One is that there seems to be some confusion about the mathematical sense of positive and negative, which merely mean >0 and <0, and words that happen to be the same word, but with greatly different meaning in general English usage.  The words "positive" and "negative" mean roughly good and bad in English vernacular outside of mathematics and engineering.  In accounting, positive normally indicates money coming in by convention, and negative normally indicates expenses or fees, or gains and losses in the value of an asset.

The other stuff you start getting into aren't specific to C, C++, Java or Python at all, and are very important, but are considered in the general areas of Human Factors and CyberSecurity.  Again, they are certainly very important, and, in fact, the Java OCPJP 819 exam has an entire section on Cyber-Security in terms of its implications to Java programmers these days.

Once you get to the technical interviews and coding challenges, your ability to communicate clearly is an important part of the hiring decision process.  Until that point, it is by far the most important part of the process.  Writing at/on any place that you can find people willing to read and discuss points that you are making, including giving you feedback on the level of readability or comprehensibility of your communications will help you hone those skills.

This often requires learning to be brief and clear in your answers, a challenge I can rise up to when required.  I've been (much) more verbose in my answers here because I am also having some difficulty in being sure exactly what your different points were asking, and wanted to cover multiple possible interpretations.

I am not certain that Java in General is the best of our forums to continue the discussion, but I am pretty sure there would be regulars on this site who would be happy to help you refine the language you are using  in the various questions.  This would likely help you in early stages of interview processes as much as any other efforts.

Some of the Java-specific interpretations of some of your earlier questions might be covered in discussions about "Why did Java recently get 'record classes' after all these years and when should I be using them instead of the plain old regular classes we've always had?"
This would be precisely the forum to have that discussion.
 
Jesse Silverman
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And, "Welcome to the Ranch!"

Your post brought so many ideas and questions to my mind I completely failed to note that this is one of your first posts here.

We really do strive to be as friendly, welcoming and understanding as we aim for technical competence.

Have you been working in Software Development recently?  Has it been in Java?  I failed to ask these two questions as well.
It would be difficult to give useful answers to some of your queries without knowing those things.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Thanks for the opportunity

Before Secondary School Leaving Certificate, I used Calculator, Logarithmic tables for calculations. I played Chess games, Read News Papers, Weekly Magazines etc.  

In 1996 I joined Higher Secondary Certificate +2 or 12th course where my father studied. I wanted to automate my father 10th Marksheet & my 10th Mark sheet (Secondary School Leaving Certificate) using Computer Automation & Software. That was my goal in 1996. But I not able to communicate that in school  
I thought in 1996 Computer World is starting. I want to migrate Real world data (Ancient world data, Modern world data) in to Computer World
Computer world idea, Migrating Legacy world, Ancient world, Modern world to Computer world not specified in Computer Science Books

When studying WordStar software my uncle was working in Star hotel
I thought words with star words, words without star words, words with negative etc

I thought what will happen If negative word entered in string Input data anytime.
So I wanted to add more quality in computer programming

Similarly I want to work on Tamil language words

Mathematically Number series specified as follows
1,2, 3.. ,
...-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3..

Similarly in Computer programming characters can be specified as +A, +B+,..+z, -A,-B,..-Z
ASCII needs to be created for this If possible

Example : Blood groups found with positive & negative values
Banking and Insurance uses Rating positive & negative values

Similarly positive and negatives can be added in other data types If possible

class key word I thought it connects to various people class from LKG to all possible time
I thought class key word needs more tutorials to create class program

But class keyword easily created using Eclipse like IDE

So I like SQL Table Keyword

ClassRecord or Record will be better in java, C++ If possible in future

I thought class key word is related to Time Machine and Time Travel

Programmer needs to worry more these
But Application user not worries about class key word
so I was not happy with class key word for many years
Please note of this.


I am not sure whether positive and negative data in Computer programming impacts Human Language in any way
For Example English, Tamil human language in to Positive English, negative English, Positive Tamil, Negative Tamil etc


Thank you


 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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M.Babu : Thanks for your response.
M.Babu : I am working in Java, Java EE based Software projects from 2006 to till date
M.Babu : I am doing few self projects without employment for self growth purpose such as self learning, Recruiters demo & Negotiation purpose


Jesse Silverman wrote: And, "Welcome to the Ranch!"

Your post brought so many ideas and questions to my mind I completely failed to note that this is one of your first posts here.

We really do strive to be as friendly, welcoming and understanding as we aim for technical competence.

Have you been working in Software Development recently?  Has it been in Java?  I failed to ask these two questions as well.

It would be difficult to give useful answers to some of your queries without knowing those things.

 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello Carey Brown, Thanks for response.

I written about class keyword in one of the above post. Please check

Which Database software you are referring to? Please guide me.
I used DBASE III plus, Foxpro during education time. I have experience in IBM DB2,Oracle, Sybase, MySQL, Java Derby DB, H2 etc  

I studied Database management system in M.Tech Industrial Engineering
I not did any database certifications to answer deep database queries
I able to understand some of the database table design, linking ideas you have shared
I used General Table of data in education, in home etc

" the SQL is not part of the table"
I not able to understand this
Please provide more details

"They are different tools for different jobs. Trying to do a job with the wrong tool is an exercise in futility. Fortunately Object Relational Mapping tools exist to bridge the gap."

Jobs, Task etc are related to Employment
Jobs, Task etc, In Education They are related to Operation research, Project Management, etc in Mechanical Engineering, Industrial Engineering
Tools, Software's related to Employment, Management, Software Architecture etc

class keyword quality needs to be checked If possible similar to real world class word
Table keyword quality needs to be checked is similar to Table word, Table of Data

I am not sure whether value analysis is done on class key word, Table key word using Value Engineering, Industrial Engineering, Managing New Product Development approach, collaboration quality, security, safety etc

Sorry for inconvinience If any for delayed communication via this forum

I am thinking about Computer Programming quality, Computer Marketing & Sales, Software Marketing & Sales, Managing Computer growth, Managing Software applications growth, Security, Safety, Privacy etc from 1996 to till date
I am also thinking about Quality & Growth of Computer World from 1996 to till date
I am also thinking about Java Hello World programming etc quality for many years

Thank you


Carey Brown wrote:"class" vs "TABLE"

In object oriented languages an object has both data (fields) and behavior (methods). The definitions of fields and methods are specified in a "class".

Internally, a table only has data, you can apply SQL operations to that data but those are not part of the data themselves.

Classes have a much richer ability to express complex relationships. Tables can usually emulate those relationships but it often involves multiple tables and SQL code to enforce rules linking data within tables or between tables. Tables themselves are essentially distilled to rows and columns. Again, the SQL is not part of the table.

They are different tools for different jobs. Trying to do a job with the wrong tool is an exercise in futility. Fortunately Object Relational Mapping tools exist to bridge the gap.

 
Jesse Silverman
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class key word I thought it connects to various people class from LKG to all possible time
I thought class key word needs more tutorials to create class program

But class keyword easily created using Eclipse like IDE

So I like SQL Table Keyword

ClassRecord or Record will be better in java, C++ If possible in future

I thought class key word is related to Time Machine and Time Travel



There's some pretty fanciful stuff in here, and some practical stuff.

In Object-Oriented Analysis and Design, which is not strictly associated with any one particular implementation language, which could be Java, Scala, C#, C++, Python or others...

The class is a basic unit of design, as well as being a keyword in most of the implementation languages.

Whether the units of individual classes are visible in a meaningful way to the User depends on what we are dealing with.

For example, End Users normally won't be aware of our class hierarchies.

But if you spend a lot of time writing API's, then various classes will indeed be part of the Application Programming Interface that the "user" (who is also another programmer) sees.
Other ones will be part of the internal implementation and hidden from or invisible to the programmer who is the "user" or "client" of the API we are providing.
In Java and some other languages we have something called an interface rather than a class, whereas in C++ for instance, even the things we would put in there are implemented as purely abstract or partially abstracted classes.

So there is some overlap and some distinction between Object-Oriented Analysis and Design and coding and keywords such as class or interface.

Java has been extremely popular for just over 25 years, so things that intended to present OOAD principles would contain ideas that were explicit in Java but only implied in C++, the main one coming to mind being an interface.

Repeating:

I thought class key word needs more tutorials to create class program



A big part of the entry-level Oracle Java Certifications concerns solid understanding of how these principles work in practice in Java.
The exams are expensive and obtaining one is something that you might or might not want to do.
However, any of countless courses ranging from completely free thru cheap to very expensive cover this material very well, you should consider devoting some time to it whether or not you decide to seek any particular certification.  In the "no charge at all category" one famous source is the Tutorials that are associated with the team that provided us Java in the first place:
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/

In particular, the Java Community's collective understanding of the basics of classes, interfaces and objects can be found here:
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/index.html

It may be that as you look at those, you feel "I already know all of this!"
If that is the case, then the most productive area to work on could possibly be effective technical communication in whichever languages your team or prospective employer speaks/reads/writes. On CodeRanch, we do share all our writings in English whatever our first languages may be (we sometimes have interesting discussions about how our first languages differ from each other in ways that can affect how we think about programming or design, but not in our main threads).

Similarly in Computer programming characters can be specified as +A, +B+,..+z, -A,-B,..-Z
ASCII needs to be created for this If possible

Example : Blood groups found with positive & negative values
Banking and Insurance uses Rating positive & negative values



Here I would say that we really don't need additional characters in Unicode for these things, because something like +A or -z would be a String rather than a single character.
Knowing Unicode well is very good if you want to be working with different written and spoken languages in your software, I am currently studying Internationalization and Localization topics in Java in preparation for the OCJP so these things are on my mind.  Materials on these topics are found in the tutorials I linked above as well.

Because this is CodeRanch, and because you were thinking that we wanted more characters to represent categories like Blood Groups or Ratings, I will link something that explains why even Strings are not the ideal way to represent such concepts in Java (or most other languages).  At one point in the history of Computer Science nearly everyone did it, but now we have better options than "Everything is a String".  It can be done but has many drawbacks.  I did not write this, but I think there is a lot to think about there:
https://coderanch.com/wiki/659830/Strings-Bad

I'm about out of time right now, so I hope these things have been helpful.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, I started to Learn Java in year 2006. I created the class on my own wish without these tutorials. During the C++ subject in Mechanical Engineering also I created the classes without any big reference guides.
From 2006 Using Free internet websites we can use any Java tutorial to create class in Eclipse or any suitable IDE. I used my own Java tutorial references from Internet search results. There is no restriction for Sun Java website or Oracle Java website. But class key word quality needs to be verified for many years.  Thank you
 
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Babu Muthukrishnan wrote:. . . without these tutorials. . . .

Unfortunately, other people manage to create poor quality code without guidance from knowledgeable people. I think books and tutorials alone are insufficient resources for learning a language.
 
Jesse Silverman
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Agreed with Campbell.

What he doesn't re-state here, and we have discussed extensively on this site, is just how much of the material out there is not of the highest quality, to put it politely.

All sorts of deviations from best practices can be picked up in this manner by motivated and well-meaning individuals.

The old training films warning War-Time soldiers about the risks of consorting with Shore Leave Sally might not be politically correct at this point in time.

But the equivalent warnings would apply equally well to a lot of the free (and even paid) tutorial materials out there "on the web".

It is not rare for the reply, when a poster is asked "Where did you get the idea that this is an okay way to do this??" has an answer that links back to this tutorial material of dubious quality.

So for many people, Campbell may be right, there is an upper limit on how good they can get just from reading the best books and consulting the highest quality courseware without access to a highly-qualified instructor or mentor looking at their code and discussing it with them.

However, I am far more concerned with the number of instances of Seriously Bad Advice or Bad Examples out there, even by people who know a lot of stuff.

The forums here are getting somewhat filled with me dragging in examples of "This guy knows WAY more Java than I do, but...is it responsible to tell people THIS?"

This is a separate dimension from the issue of how many people can learn to write maintainable and reliable programs just by reading only the best books and tutorial websites, and watching only the best videos.

In a quest to reinforce Java material in my mind without endlessly re-reading the same sources again and again, I will read and watch almost anything on the topics I am studying, knowing to take them with a grain of salt.  This can eventually lead to high blood pressure.

Just one in-place example so this isn't purely theoretical.  A long video series that shows virtually every possible call on Collections, including sorting.  Not one mention of the .hashCode()/.equals() contract, and numerous examples that completely ignore it while showing user-defined types stored as members in HashSets or keys of HashMaps.  I can casually write trivial additions to their examples that would show bizarre, non-set-like or non-map-like behavior.  There are more than a few of these.  They never mention the hazards of storing mutable data types in such a way either.  Not that they mention it once or twice and then forget it in some examples.  They just ignore it right thru-out the whole series of lectures.  Same thing on the risks of defining a Comparator that is inconsistent with .equals() for the type.  They show this without thought or comment...

Someone who was exposed to lots of this, and little material of more rigorous quality could quite easily feel highly confident.  After all, they now know every single API call on all the major types of the Collections Framework and what parameters to pass.  It would be very easy for them to write code that would not work correctly, and worse yet, would seem just fine until tested properly, if and when that ever occurs.
 
Jesse Silverman
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But class key word quality needs to be verified for many years.



I am still unsure what your main point is about this.

There are a significant minority of programmers that absolutely hate Object-Oriented programming in general, and others that feel that SmallTalk got it right but that Java followed C++ down a wrong path.

In C++, a popular easy interview question is "What is the difference between struct and class in C++?"

If you like typing the word public more than you like typing the word private you can convert even the largest body of C++ code into one that does not contain the class keyword.

In Java you can't do this.

So it remains unclear whether you are unhappy with the state of Object Relational Mapping when working with SQL databases, feel that Object-Oriented Analysis and Design has been branded a panacea and used to hammer in too many screws, or that literally you dislike the keyword class itself.

Any or all of these could be good discussions, or preparation for interviews, but likely would not be the best place to focus when seeking employment.

I will state that I had been watching a lot of Very Smart People reacting to the notion that Inheritance is Terribly Overused, and going on to talk about the alternatives they considered better.  Making use of Composition over Inheritance, recognizing where "Data classes" and plain functions made more sense, or whatever.

Then on interview after interview after interview, some of which went very well and/or resulted in employment, they wanted to talk a lot about object-oriented analysis, design and programming in whichever languages they used.

But even the Contrarian Reactionaries who hated OOPS and considered it a mistake, didn't seem to care much about the keyword itself.  Their concern was about how to design and organize programs.

For someone hoping to obtain employment in the near-term, I would suggest sticking to the Conventional Wisdom and focusing on what most hiring managers consider "the Basics".  Experience has shown me that this is Quite Conventional and there is a Heavy Focus on what we would have called "the Basics" quite some time ago.  They are happy to hear that you understand the difference between an abstract class and an interface in the light of default and static methods in interfaces, because that is in Java 8.  On the other hand, NONE of my favorite Java 9, 10 and 11 tricks could be employed on the recent Amazon Coding Challenges I took last week.  The HackerRank platform now allows you to select Java 15 for many of their problems, however, the ones presented to job-seekers by Amazon do NOT.  You have two choices.  Java 7 or Java 8.

TLDR -- there are interesting ideas here, but for interview purposes, sticking heavily to the conventional wisdom on the basics will probably achieve the best results.  The Java Tutorials focus on these heavily and unlike many other free sources of information, contain little that might steer you wrong in ways that could cause you to fail a shared coding session in an interview were you to use them there.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello,
Thanks for the Opportunity.
Sorry for inconvinience If any.

Please check link
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/cupojava/netbeans.html

Please check Creating Your First Application step

Create an IDE project step
IDE uses word Project

When comparing with Mechanical Engineering Project Management in Operation Research, Industrial Engineering Project Management, Here Project Management Techniques such as Program Evaluation Review Techniques (PERT), Critical Path Method (CPM) are not used.      

Thank you
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello,
Thanks for the Opportunity.
Sorry for inconvinience If any.

Please check link
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/index.html

Trial Getting Started is very big scope of work given with The Hello World Application .
World level complexity is not needed in Getting started analysis If possible.

Simple Hello World Application can be changed as some useful starter application

For Example Similar to learning Alphabets in English, Printing Alphabets can be done with English Alphabet class
This will be similar to starting one of first lessons in L.K.G

So First starter class can be described as English Alphabets First App (EnglishAlphabetsFirstApp)
Purpose of the class is to print English Alphabets with Words or without Words etc

Please check about this idea and quality

Please provide your feedback, guidance, ideas If any

Thank you
 
Jesse Silverman
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When comparing with Mechanical Engineering Project Management in Operation Research, Industrial Engineering Project Management, Here Project Management Techniques such as Program Evaluation Review Techniques (PERT), Critical Path Method (CPM) are not used.  



This is easier to know how to reply to!

Tho it came up somewhat randomly in discussion first oriented elsewhere, we recently discussed this book on these forums:

https://www.craiglarman.com/wiki/index.php?title=Book_Applying_UML_and_Patterns

The fundamental confusion that we may be experiencing at this moment is the distinction between the many different, sometimes conflicting methodologies for planning a large project that will likely employ many developers over an extended period of time, and the steps needed to create a toy project, or a small real one.

The link you shared was to the latter.  You wish to write a simple program, that might consist of two or three or four classes, that one person may work on for an hour or three.

The steps involved there are going to necessarily be very different than those that will be used to guide the work of a team of an architect, eight to ten software engineers, a few SDET resources and a product manager for six months or longer!

There is no shortage of books, lectures, courses, presentations etc. on various competing methodologies for the latter.

As it happens, I myself have been moved forward with the interview process for Amazon, so "How to prepare to begin work on a large-scale project" is foremost in my thoughts.  As a very large employer with their own ways of doing things, my attention will be focused on ways they prefer to see things done, and their notions of what these steps should be.

Now, in terms of Java itself, notions of program organization have evolved rather drastically since its early beginnings in the 1990's.

They placed very heavy emphasis on the notion of a package as a higher unit of organization above that of the individual class.

However, all but the most trivial projects quickly became much larger than a model of one, or even two or three or five packages, and the lack of a higher level of project management in Java itself, became a serious issue.  Products/projects like Maven stepped in to fill the void, but Maven for instance while doing a great job of providing you build-time organization and dependency management, and alleviating problems of being dependent on a particular IDE for such, effectively are gone at *runtime*, leaving us with JAR Hell or ClassPath Hell, which is as bad as DLL Hell was but didn't even rhyme, to add insult to injury.

A casual search for "SDLC", short for "Software Development Lifecycle yielded not many fewer than  17 million hits (!!!)
One that is relatively free of proprietary products and services is at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_development_life_cycle

Perhaps some of our other forums might be a good place to explore some of these questions, somewhere under:
https://coderanch.com/c/engineering

For instance maybe here:
https://coderanch.com/f/146/design

Or here?
https://coderanch.com/f/42/Agile

I wouldn't fault sources that aim at getting beginners designing and coding their first toy or test projects for not covering an overview of competing methodologies and schools of thought on large scale design, that is not at all what they intend to provide.

Many or most coding challenges give you about 30 to 90 minutes to solve an easy, moderate, or difficult problem of relatively small scope.
I found these very difficult due to the very narrow time restrictions which are given to understand the problem specification, choose algorithm(s) and data structures, code and test.

I have managed to do extremely well on a few of these, which leads to full-day interviews where how you work together with, or lead, a large team on a large project over an extended period of time becomes the focus.  One of the basic units of the resulting systems will indeed still be the class, the package, and other units of organization above that.

Very little of what you appear to be most interested in for this thread is specific to Java.  The same concerns would come up, looking more or less the same, in any Object-Oriented Language.  The same concerns would come up, looking rather differently, in various procedural or functionally focused languages.  There is no widely-held consensus on which methodologies are "the best" irrespective of the type of project one is embarking on, furthermore, I would venture to say that there is no consensus even given that, beyond saying that Agile has become a buzzword that many teams like to apply to their processes, which may differ widely in details from that of other teams that also deem themselves "Agile".  I will say that most can agree that it is good to HAVE a process, but I am reminded of a quote from George Lowe as "Space Ghost", where he said "But not nearly as important as having a balanced diet -- whatever that is!"

I hope that helps.  You will find no shortage of persons with very strongly-held convictions on best practices in large-scale design on planning, if you know where to start looking.  Beware, you may find more disagreement than agreement here.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvinience If any.
In the URL https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/cupojava/netbeans.html
I not like HelloWorld complex, large scope case study.

I need simple application case study

I feel next steps are difficult task with large complexity

I created the Similar Sample applications many times before.
I do not want to repeat same error again
I want to improve quality in Java
Thank you
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvinience If any.
If I get Internet connection etc, I will check about this post.
Thank you
 
Jesse Silverman
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Babu Muthukrishnan wrote:Hello,
Thanks for the Opportunity.
Sorry for inconvinience If any.

Please check link
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/index.html

Trial Getting Started is very big scope of work given with The Hello World Application .
World level complexity is not needed in Getting started analysis If possible.

Simple Hello World Application can be changed as some useful starter application

For Example Similar to learning Alphabets in English, Printing Alphabets can be done with English Alphabet class
This will be similar to starting one of first lessons in L.K.G

So First starter class can be described as English Alphabets First App (EnglishAlphabetsFirstApp)
Purpose of the class is to print English Alphabets with Words or without Words etc

Please check about this idea and quality

Please provide your feedback, guidance, ideas If any

Thank you



Hi again, Babu.
1. "Hello World" has become a deeply engrained part of the wider "Developer Culture" for better or for worse.  Writing this as a first project in a language has attracted more consensus than anything else this side of two's-complement arithmetic, ASCII or Unicode.  You are fighting an extremely uphill battle if you wish to push back against this, and it might not be the best hill to choose to die on.  When you are safe and secure in a job, and not seeking to pass interviews, consider reading "Don Quixote" if you have not yet, but for now I strongly advise you to let this one stand, it has far too much momentum behind it.  "Hello, World!" is the first project shown in too many different languages I've looked at to count, but, probably more than ten.

2. Some criticize Java, perhaps fairly, perhaps not, for being too verbose and having too much ceremony.
These people prefer the Python 3 version, shown here for reference, along with output:
>>> print("Hello World!")
Hello World!

Those that find these criticisms unfair, or find that they miss the point, will generally explain that Java contains many, many rules, regulations and required program components meant to make possible the organizing of large-scale projects worked on by many different people over a long period of time without devolving into utter chaos.  I would likely be among them.

This doesn't mean that Java got everything right back in 1995!  A whole language and community developed around what the progenitor of Scala saw as defects that Java was saddled with, and large-scale organization of big Java projects would look VERY different using "Project Jigsaw" or the "Java Platform Module System" than it would in Java 8.

It seems that we both come from an Engineering background, so the following analogy should be familiar.
Just as the scary movies that show ants the size of buses picking up cars and throwing them are ridiculous, if you attempted to make an ant that size it would be a race to see whether it was crushed to death under its own weight or suffocated first, it would not be picking anything up, sadly.
Attempts to use the same approach for designing and coding a project for one person to complete in five minutes and a team of twenty to work on for a year seem futile to me.  What makes an approach appropriate for one case is precisely what makes it so wrong for the other.

Now, what good CODE looks like in each case, here, since we are in the "Java in General" forum, may be very much the same.  I have participated in discussions/debates about whether code that is run millions of times per second all over the world and read by 0.000001% of its users even once in their lifetime needs to be as readable -- where this might compromise performance -- as code run once a day for five years, completing each run in five minutes, but getting updated hundreds of times over those five years by eight different people.  Some may feel the same standards should apply, but the ratio of how often the code is executed in a critical path versus how often developers are reading it with an eye towards modifying it makes a big difference to me.

Anyway, I believe that "Hello World" is here to stay as an introduction.  Even things that change it to "Hello, Python!" or "Hello, Android!" or whatever are just substituting a favorite phrase.

I think I have pointed out some parts of our site where discussions about how to engage in analysis and design of large-scale projects might be better suited than in here, at least if the steps involved contain no Java in them.  I may be frequenting themselves in coming weeks as I need to prepare to engage in such discussions and not sound clueless or confused.  I have indeed worked on some of the largest projects in the world, but have been heavily focused on both Java itself and solving small, self-contained problems in the best possible way for much of the past year.

 
Jesse Silverman
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Babu Muthukrishnan wrote:Hello, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvinience If any.
In the URL https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/cupojava/netbeans.html
I not like HelloWorld complex, large scope case study.

I need simple application case study

I feel next steps are difficult task with large complexity

I created the Similar Sample applications many times before.
I do not want to repeat same error again
I want to improve quality in Java
Thank you



Parts of this statement are difficult to interpret.
It seems possible that the statement that:

I not like HelloWorld complex, large scope case study.

I need simple application case study


Means either that:
1. You consider the HelloWorld program too complex for a beginning project?  It has become near-Universal an example due to its inherent simplicity, it is considered the go-to example to show the simplest, smallest project in any given language, IDE, etc.
2. You may not like that it looks as complex as it does in Java.  There are people who prefer Python for this reason, and fans of Java think they pay a very heavy price when their projects get much larger, because you pay one price at Admission for Java up front...but your other posts would suggest this is not the case.

I created the Similar Sample applications many times before.
I do not want to repeat same error again
I want to improve quality in Java


CodeRanch is an excellent supplementary resource for those who wish to improve quality in Java, it has helped me immensely.
While historically we had a Cattle Drive going that guided such efforts, I am not sure of its current status as of late.

I need simple application case study

I feel next steps are difficult task with large complexity


There are many possible next steps for you.  I would say that the two requirements you pose here are somewhat contradictory, however.

There are many sites that will let you practice easy, moderate, difficult and Very Hard     problems for free, which will get you in shape for data structures and algorithms courses.
Amongst those that are completely free and charge you nothing, HackerRank, LeetCode and CodeAbbey come to mind first.
In recent weeks, I have had coding challenges that needed to be completed successfully to proceed with the interview process at major employers in our field at both
HackerRank.com
and
https://app.codility.com/programmers/lessons/1-iterations/

Some like to practice there because you may be using the same platform to take actual challenges that will allow you to either continue or end your interview and application process with different employers.
You are very unlikely to see the same problems on an interview, but being very familiar with the sites would be preferable to being totally unfamiliar with them until it is GO TIME and it counts.

Rather different to these sources, which will generally provide you with very small-scale programming problems in various topics of computer science and of varying difficulty levels, it seems you may have decided you want to seek guided project work.

If that is the case, confirm that I have correctly interpreted what you are looking for, which I currently believe to be guided project work on larger projects of significant complexity with lots of feedback.

Additionally, I believe you are hoping to find sources of this that are free or very inexpensive.

I actually don't have good suggestions here if that is what you are looking for, but others will.

Either of these approaches can make you a much better Java programmer, in different ways.

 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello Jesse Silverman,
Thanks for the Response.

Thanks for the Opportunity

We will focus only on link https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/getStarted/cupojava/netbeans.html quality

In Step 4: Create Main class Easily Done with helloworldapp.HelloWorldApp

class keyword quality needs to be compared for school education class or any other subject lesson class

Hello World App class Equivalent school education class details are not provided in the above URL
Hello World App class Equivalent subject lesson details are not provided in the above URL


As per above URL,  class keyword quality is not good in above Java Program

Thank you
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvinience If any.

If I get Internet connection etc, I will check about this post.
I am going for sleep
Now mid night crossed in India

Thank you
 
Jesse Silverman
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I am going to have to go off to my own studies exclusively for a while, but will try to answer this.

class keyword quality needs to be compared for school education class or any other subject lesson class

Hello World App class Equivalent school education class details are not provided in the above URL
Hello World App class Equivalent subject lesson details are not provided in the above URL



The page to which you refer is merely trying to show the mechanics of how one compiles and runs a simple project in a particular IDE which has been favored by Sun/Oracle in the past: Netbeans IDE.

There are many other IDE's available for free and at varying costs that have their own fanatical adherents.

One possible objection to parts of the Java Tutorials is that they might be too focused on NetBeans.

If someone feels that way, they can ask for their money back (unless they bought the printed book on Amazon) -- the Tutorials are otherwise free, so that is rather a joke.

I have only occasionally referred to those tutorials myself, but I know many hundreds of thousands, and possibly more than a million people got much of their initial Java education from that source.

Other parts of that same tutorial series, and countless free and for-pay tutorials of varying qualities, introduce OOAD with a Java slant.

It is truly difficult for me to understand what you are intending by the phrases:

Equivalent school education class details
Equivalent subject lesson details



I often find it unfortunate that we use the term class to mean the primary organizing unit in Object-Oriented Analysis, Design and Programming, and in courses or lectures that cover these topics.

If we were to refer to groups of students working under a teacher to learn some material solely as a Course
and only use the term class to refer to the entities defined in Java and other languages containing data members, instance methods and static methods...would those phrases change?

Lastly, it seems that I had possibly misunderstood when you first posted, and perhaps are pretty solid at basic core Java.
Because you first learned it a long time ago, I would add that there is a LOT of material in those same Java Tutorials that addresses relatively recent additions to Java (but not after Java 8, it seems to have been abandoned after that point).

If you already are familiar enough with creating classes, interfaces and enums, for instance, there may be no reason to start at the beginning.

NetBeans is not everyone's preferred choice of IDE.  If you have a lot of familiarity with a different one, I would suggest you simply skip the parts of those tutorials that are centered around NetBeans IDE usage.
There are likely many topics well-presented that you would benefit from.

Or not, I have been unsure exactly what you were looking for as your next steps in your education/professional development and have tried to basically cover multiple possible interpretations.

Independent of any particular technical competency, developing one's ability to communicate clearly is of great value in seeking almost any employment.
I was going to say "Unless you are considering being a mime" but even there, effective communication with the constraint of not using any words is still essential.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello,
I studied in Tamil Medium in Tamil Nadu, India.

English is one of the subject from Primary school, Middle school, Secondary school, Higher Secondary School, Engineering First year

Computer Science in one of the subject in Higher Secondary Certificate course or 12th Course or +2 course with Software's Word star (Theory), BASIC (Theory & Lab), MSDOS(Theory & Little Lab) etc

I studied Lotus 123, DBASE III plus, MS DOS etc in One Institute in leave time  

MS DOS, BASIC, Auto CAD, FoxPro learned in B.E First year
C,C++, Visual BASIC learned in II year

Internet Programming, Computer Graphics, Animation etc not available in School Computer Science and Mechanical Engineering. But Internet usage started from 1998

Please check the links English to Tamil Translation for class word, class key word
https://www.bing.com/search?q=class+meaning+in+Tamil&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=class+meaning+in+tamil&sc=2-22&sk=&cvid=1A6E11678BA746658D4FB7A44490A5DC

https://www.google.com/search?q=class+meaning+in+tamil&source=hp&ei=bXtwYY2qIZWprtoP3OqQOA&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYXCJfeyOj6uSCiB-Wno7X6Fdd1vk1IcE&oq=class+meaning+in+tamil&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIKCAAQgAQQRhD_ATIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDoTCAAQ6gIQChCPARCMAxDlAhCLAzoRCAAQ6gIQjwEQjAMQ5QIQiwM6EQguEOoCEI8BEIwDEOUCEIsDOggIABCABBCxAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CAguELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCjAjoICC4QgAQQsQM6BQguEIAEOgUIABCxAzoHCAAQgAQQCjoICAAQsQMQgwFQuw5Y5TFg0kBoAXAAeACAAXeIAZ8JkgEEMTMuMZgBAKABAbABCg&sclient=gws-wiz

As per me class is linked to Entity, fields or instance variables, static methods, instance methods

class is also Lessons about particular subject area
class is also like First class, 2nd class etc

class is also connected to Time Machine & Time Travel

class key word also related to migrating all education class data to class Java

class key word quality needs to be verified when creating the class or when ever possible

Thank you
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, I expected the C++ product change with non class key word such as Table or Record class or Record or TableRow etc from 1999 year. Still c++ and Java uses class keyword. I was using Table of Data in all possible places in Mathematics, Milk sales calculations & Payments etc during education time. class of data is not regular English sentence compared to Table of Data English sentence. Please note of this. Please check about class key word quality compared to Table key word, etc.  Thank you
 
Carey Brown
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Definition of "class":
a set or category of things having some property or attribute in common and differentiated from others by kind, type, or quality.
 
Jesse Silverman
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I have worked with hundreds of people from all over the Subcontinent and dozens of countries around the world who had English as their second, third, and sometimes fourth languages.

I am still finding this rough going.

I have had some good friends that had Tamil as a first language, but really can not speak it, your English is way better than my Tamil.

As to this, for this thread and any others:

As per me class is linked to Entity, fields or instance variables, static methods, instance methods

class is also Lessons about particular subject area
class is also like First class, 2nd class etc

class is also connected to Time Machine & Time Travel

class key word also related to migrating all education class data to class Java

class key word quality needs to be verified when creating the class or when ever possible



Yes to the first line.  A class is something that has static or instance variables, static and instance methods, a constructor and possibly some other things we usually only care about for certification exams or tricky interview questions.

The second thing about lessons about particular subject area -- correct in general English, terribly confusing here, please only use the term "Course", "Lecture" or "Educational Material" to refer to such things when discussing Java.   The fault isn't yours, but it is extremely easy to get confused, as I have here.  None of the three terms I suggested mean anything to Java.

The third thing, that class can represent a ranking or rank, absolutely true in general English, very confusing when discussing Java programming.  Please only refer to those as a rank or perhaps a grade in conversations about Java.  It is fine when talking with non-programmers about hotels and many other things, but the fact that it is the same word as an important Java entity and keyword makes discussion very confusing.

The fourth thing, as much as I like science fiction about time travel and alternate timelines, I had not heard the English word class used in this case.  Those are very interesting topics but let's leave them for other places and avoid referring to them while discussing Java programming and interview prep.

class key word also related to migrating all education class data to class Java


That sentence gets difficult to parse.  See above, let's only call the unit of students taking instruction in a particular subject an instance of a course offering, or something else.  Just to avoid using multiple meanings of 'class' in one sentence.

class key word quality needs to be verified when creating the class or when ever possible


I have now seen you write that exact sentence quite a number of times and I am still having trouble understanding its meaning.
I can guess at several different possible meanings (and already have) but this is not productive.
I will fight the temptation to guess what it means and as you to try to rephrase it.
The part I have the most difficulty with is what you actually mean by "class key word quality" which needs to be verified.
I am fighting hard against trying to guess again, as it is more challenging/fun than productive or useful.

I consider being able to collaborate productively with people who have first and second languages other than English to be an important skill.  So much so that I have on my resume that I am good at it.

The meaning of that sentence continues to elude me however, unless one of my earlier guesses at it was correct.
Even if so, they were all just guesses from context.

 
Campbell Ritchie
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Jesse Silverman wrote:. . . 1. "Hello World" has become a deeply engrained part of the wider "Developer Culture" for better or for worse. . . . too many different languages . . . to count . . .

The common Hello, World program is a bit of non‑object‑oriented programming whose only real use is to demonstrate that the language has been correctly installed. It is quite easy to convert it to an object‑oriented program. I thought nearly every language had a Hello, World written in it.

. . . Some criticize Java . . . verbose . . ..

It is a verbose language, yes.
 
Jesse Silverman
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Please note that both Java and C++, due to their Extreme Emphasis on compatibility and ensuring that literally billions of lines of code already out there will continue to compile "forever" are EXTREMELY reluctant to add keywords.

They will only do it after there is the clearest need for it to advance the languages and even then only after endless arguments and discussion by many, many people.

I see zero chance of either of them changing the word class to anything else, tho as I mentioned before in C++, but not Java, someone who had some untreatable allergy to that keyword could write their entire system using only the struct keyword.  This is useful only in the categories of trivia and humor, I guarantee this won't change.

In my opinion "Records" are arguably the most important change between Java 11 and Java 17.
They are not a blanket replacement for classes, and while well worth learning I suspect many employers won't be using new Java 17 features for a very long time.  I've gotten feedback on this from a number of Java team leads in various places.

SQL is very important, and there are numerous open-source projects and many books addressing the proper way to bridge the gap between the object-oriented view of the world and SQL tables.

But if the only thing you get from this topic is for you to stop holding your breath awaiting the deprecation of the class keyword in Java or C++, I will have helped you a lot.  That just isn't going to ever happen.
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Jesse Silverman wrote:. . . Extreme Emphasis on compatibility . . . billions of lines of code already out there will continue to compile . . . .

It shouldn't be necessary to recompile code, but if the old, compiled code stops running because a new version of the platform is being used, developers will migrate to different languages in their thousands.

. . . "Records" are arguably the most important change . . . . not a blanket replacement for classes . . .

Records are brilliant. I think they are a special kind of class, just as enums are. There should be more information in the JLS (=Java® Language Specification). Many companies are reluctant to use code in production until the platform has a few years' experience and widespread testing.
 
Jesse Silverman
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In SQL, a TABLE is an un-ordered collection of similar entities.

In Java, a class is a definition of one particular type of entity, which may be related to at most one other class, its direct super-class, directly thru inheritance, and possibly other ones thru inheriting from another class which is in turn a sub-class of another more primary class, going back to Object...

There are numerous commonly-used frameworks in Java to marry your classes to your tables.
They are worth learning.

I may see what you possibly have been trying to say for some posts now, perhaps that a particular *instance* of a class is more or less similar in some ways to a record of an SQL table?

Yes in some ways and no in others, as Carey had replied early in the thread.

Learning about Hibernate, JPA, JDBC, etc. are productive steps towards employment in many places.

Other, more "modern" environments consider SQL databases in general to be yesterday's news, and I am focused on learning products with the very unfortunate umbrella term of "No-SQL" which only tells you what they are NOT, rather than what they are.

Other employers are very heavily wedded to their SQL systems, and a prospective employee can't possibly know too much about various SQL tips, tricks, traps and techniques.

In none of these places would I expect arguing against the use of the class keyword in programming to contribute to positive results in an interview.

I have my own idiosyncrasies, I much prefer to write ++i when I mean it rather than i++, which I only write when I need to use its old value before incrementing.

But seriously, a campaign against the class keyword in Java, C++, C# and other related languages is the height of Quixoticly Doomed Endeavors.
 
Carey Brown
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Jesse Silverman wrote:In none of these places would I expect arguing against the use of the class keyword in programming to contribute to positive results in an interview.


This.
 
Jesse Silverman
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Campbell Ritchie wrote:

Jesse Silverman wrote:. . . Extreme Emphasis on compatibility . . . billions of lines of code already out there will continue to compile . . . .

It shouldn't be necessary to recompile code, but if the old, compiled code stops running because a new version of the platform is being used, developers will migrate to different languages in their thousands..



In my haste to convince our poster that wishing for key word changes in Java is not something to hang one's hat on, I may or may not have conflated binary compatibility of .class files and source compatibility of .java source code files.  I believe that if they were willing to break either, one could imagine removing a keyword that would break all re-compiles yet allow existing binaries to continue running happily.

Of course, in practice, they are extremely reluctant to break either type of compatibility, and with good reason.

I believe there are some good ideas in this thread, but deprecating the class keyword is decidedly not one of them.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello, Thanks for opportunity
Sorry for inconvinience if any
I created the post as per guidance given
Link
https://coderanch.com/t/746507/careers/Attending-Job-Interviews-Java-SQL
Please check If possible
Thank you
 
Jesse Silverman
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Some of that is pretty ambitious!

I think I noted in addition to Tamil, English and Hindi also French and Japanese as well?

What are minimum requirements for language fluency in jobs at places you are trying to apply to?

It is great if you speak more than three languages effectively, but that is quite difficult.
Is there further benefit for you pursuing more than three?

If you already have some competency in others, it probably can't hurt to list them.

But you are a bit spread out there.

The website is a nice idea.  If nothing else it shows you are aware of how to make a basic website.

I note that you are at least enrolled in a number of courses.  It is not clear from casual observation how successfully or to what extent you have completed the materials.

You are in possession of a few decently-regarded books in the area of Java programming.

In the United States, extremely little feedback is provided after interviews in modern times.
These days you either get hired, or not, with almost no feedback at all.
This is because of fear of lawsuits.

In the old days, prospective employers would tell you extensively what they had liked about you, and what made them choose someone else, things that you might work on improving, or to help you target different positions.

This has all vanished in the United States in modern times, again, primarily due to fear of lawsuits.

I got more total feedback from one application when I started my career, or even several years in, than I would from twenty or more put together now.

I don't know how true this is when applying for jobs within India at the current date.  If you get very little feedback for the same reasons, I sympathize.

Okay, it is bedtime here, but it was nice seeing your webpages, and I was able to say something, hopefully constructive.
 
Babu Muthukrishnan
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Hello All, Thanks for the Opportunity. Sorry for inconvinience If any. I need some time for going through all the comments, providing response etc. I will check and reply . Thank you  
 
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