Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
My main project -- small at about six developers -- practices TDD, "Test Driven Development."
Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
I think you'll find a number of people in this forum doing the same thing.
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Originally posted by Esther Schindler:
Have you ever done it another way? In what ways was it different? (The unit testing, I mean. TDD may change EVERYthing, so this may be a dumb question.)
Originally posted by Esther Schindler:
Some stages of quality testing definitely belong in the QA Department's hands: the professional testers know how to read (and write!) functional descriptions, they know how to use the fancy testing tools, and they know how to exercise the features of an application.
In your shop, who does the unit testing? Is that the responsibility of the individual developer? Or is QA responsible for that part of the testing cycle?
Whichever answer you choose: is that the way you prefer it to be? Why?
Do software methodologies change the answer?
Please let me know how I can refer to you in the article.
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Originally posted by Al Caplan:
2) If you leave it to QA to write the test, what if it fails? Who is responsible for a failure, when the developer could have moved on, and is not looking at the previous issue?
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Originally posted by Scott Selikoff:
While I may dislike test-driven development
In an Agile environment, the designated QA tester would be testing pieces of the developers code as soon as they were ready.
Ultimately its QA's job to protect the client, not the developer's.
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
I see that differently. QA's job is to help the whole team (including the developers and the customer) to get better feedback about how close the developed system is to what the customer actually requested.
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Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
As I see it, QA does tend to represent the client more than anyone else.
It's harder for developers to say the application isn't ready. QA tends to be more of a neutral third party. Also, QA is less attached to the code and can view testing as more of trying to break the code than developers can.
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Originally posted by Scott Selikoff:
Ultimately its QA's job to protect the client, not the developer's
developers actually would prefer to ship him crap, which isn't true in my experience.
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Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
It's also the developers wish to make clean maintainable code that implements the requirements by a certain date. Meanwhile, QA can focus purely on quality. I guess what I'm saying is that QA has a more specific focus on quality, not that developers don't want to make the customer happy.
Ship - no. Put into the early server environments - yes. In some places there is a strong emphasis on being "done" by the defined date. We've gotten into heated debates about what "done" means.
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
In my experience, this emphasis is typically not inherent to the needs of the developers, but tought by management.
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Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
Agreed!
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
I use a quote from the Pragmatic Programmers book when people argue that it isn't their job to test. The Pragmatic Programmers point out that it is your job to create working code. The developer written unit tests just help out with that.
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
I think that QA testers actually can help getting project managers to accept reality and find a better definition for "done", thereby giving back some freedom to the developers to really produce a quality product. I don't know any developer worth his salt who wouldn't like to do that, deep in his heart.
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
Interesting - what do you dislike about it?.
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
In fact, in many Agile teams today, the tester writes the automated test even before the developers start implementing the functionality.
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
I see that differently. QA's job is to help the whole team (including the developers and the customer) to get better feedback about how close the developed system is to what the customer actually requested. In my eyes, that is more of a win-win situation than being about protecting one side from the other.
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Originally posted by Esther Schindler:
Some developers are better at it than are others. What do you think those developers do right? (Which takes us far off the topic of unit testing, but I can't help myself.)
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Originally posted by Scott Selikoff:
I see people rushing to it as if it will allow projects to finish bug free without really understanding it.
Also, I find the notion of unit testing in J2EE perposteruous.
I don't see QA testers having the knowledge to write low level unit tests. Most QA testers I've met couldn't read code at all, but knew how to write good test cases so in practice I'm not sure how often this would be theasible.
Then you're not really talking about unit tests.
While I admire your desire to view the situation from a more positive perspective, it is about protection. QA's entire role is to protect bad code from getting to the customer. If QA is doing its just properly I should be able to write terrible code (on purpose or otherwise) that never gets to the customer.
QA is a form of accountability, or in other words blame.
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
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