Parag Pathak

Freshers are getting big offers now a days http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Facebook-offers-Rs-1-34-cr-package-to-Allahabad-engineering-student/articleshow/12455317.cms

Parag Pathak wrote:

Deepak Bala wrote:
In India (assuming that is where you are from), it is difficult to find folks that encourage technical expertise. I can get into the reasons

I am interested to know the reasons. I can start new thread for it if you do not want to discuss them in this thread.

As far as I understand the reasons are India's Service companies, Non IT MNCs and their HR consultants are always frustrated. They believe in torturing good technical people right from recruitment because these people want to work for product companies where skills are respected and paid very good. This is why big product companies are happy in India while Non IT MNCs, service companies and their HR consultants always seen frustrated. I can not blame them because they may have limited budget and it is supply demand formula as well. But demand for good technical people is always high in India(probably anywhere not only in Inda) which they do not understand. The HR consultants also do not understand that management is an art not collection of tricks and good management skills starts from recruitment. So I agree what you said.

Mohamed Sanaulla wrote:Agree with Deepak.

Deepak Bala wrote: You cannot carry on doing something that you dont like. It will eventually wear you down

Adding to this: If you dont have interest than you cannot give your best and this reflects in your performance.

So before taking decision, sit back and reflect upon yours likes and interests. Dont go by what others are doing.

The issue is far more complex and I do not want to hijack the discussion. I like money and I work for money. If manager's role is going pay me more, I would like to work as a manager. Other than money if I like something else for example technology, then it is my hobby not my career. It is simple. Every person work for different reasons. As mentioned in this this discussion, different people work for different reasons. I work for money. I don't want to get into if I am right or wrong. That is me. If I understand value of money I am getting, I will certainly give more than 100% in whatever I do. Anyway as I said I do not want to hijack discussion, and I also do not want to get into what is right for everyone, so I withdraw from it.

Deepak Bala wrote:
You cannot carry on doing something that you dont like. It will eventually wear you down.

Many people like jobs which pay higher. This is why I do not like the jobs which pay relatively less.

Deepak Bala wrote:
In India (assuming that is where you are from), it is difficult to find folks that encourage technical expertise. I can get into the reasons

I am interested to know the reasons. I can start new thread for it if you do not want to discuss them in this thread.

Prasad Krishnegowda wrote:
Some people consider a person successful in IT industry, just by seeing how many times, (s)he have gone onsite and the salary they are getting. just getting more salary makes the person successful?

What is your definition of success? Is more work, more knowledge, less pay, no oniste travel is your definition of the success, then I am not that. Again my comments are my personal opinion and not to criticize any company's policy.

All the best !

Paul Anilprem wrote:
You might want to read Fallacy #8 described at http://www.javaranch.com/fallacy.jsp

Do not try to take support of anything outside of debate.

And there is no contradiction. Manual tester do not go onsite because of luck. Take this out of your mind that people go onsite because of luck. They are sent because they are required to be sent (for any reason). They are sent may be for work which can not be done offsite. They are sent because they have been loyal to company and as a recognition of their contribution. They are sent because company do not want them to leave. Reason may be anything but it is not luck. When you start debating with finding contradiction etc, it is sign that probably you are not finding valid point.

Everyone is not sent onsite at the same time. Do you thin anyone will expect send everyone onsite at the same time? I think no. Then what is difference between onsite and offsite development. They are sent in phases. Have you heard of job rotation? I am sure in your 10+ years of experience you might have come across it somewhere.

Yes it is more profitable for company that all the people work offsite. It is also more profitable for company that people start working for free. Yes that is also profitable. But one small question, is it practical? So it is not practical to expect everything will work the way company want it. People will leave you (in little better economy )

If I start replying on everything, it will be waste of time.

In short do you agree people are sent onsite in phases? I hope your answer is yes. If that is yes then I think you should also agree on OP has valid expectation after working for 5 years, he expect onsite opportunity. What is wrong in that?

Paul Anilprem wrote:

1. The article you have referred does not say anything about the point that I made. Yes, obviously, growth is hampered because of visa restrictions. That doesn't mean they are sending higher percentage of employees on site.

The article which posted says it very clear what I wanted say. Never mind If you search on google you will get more clear answer. I suspect you know it but you still want to say that these companies do not send people onsite. Well they do. Even small service companies send people onsite. Indian service companies are known for onsite opportunities. Even a tester who do manual testing and he/she can be easily replaced because manual testing is not rare skill also get onsite opportunities in service companies. .

In IMO when a skilled person leaves the company, finding a replacement for similar skill, training and bringing him on same level is more costly than sending that person onsite. And even if you do that, same thing can happen with new person as well. I am talking about A grade projects. If some company has a policy of not sending people onsite in order to save money, I wonder how they will compete with others who send onsite as far as war of talent is concerned. Or they do not need talent, they are okay with commodity developers. I don't understand.

Paul Anilprem wrote:

2. I have been in this business for 10+ yrs and I have a fairly decent understanding of how this model works Doing as much work off site as possible is the goal. On site stint is a carrot. Managing an employee using this carrot is the game! Yes, there are companies who engage in on-shore out-sourcing as well. You would be lucky to get into such a project while sitting off shore.

See Paul, in forums many people come and say I have 10+ years of experience, I have 20+ plus years of experience and this the reason what someone saying is correct. It is kind of a rule that if you have 10+ or 20+ plus years of experience everything you talk is true. No. And well I never say how many years of experience I have, probably I may have more than you, do you know anything about me? I hope no. So let's keep that aside. I never give any importance to how many years anyone spent working in office. I also never agree that knowledge and skills are directly proportional to experience someone have. Anyway offshore development is known for saving cost, but not this way.

It's not luck. It is skill. You do not go for picnic onisite. You go for some purpose. You need that skill to achieve it. It is skill not luck.

I disagree with what you said, that is what I want to say.

p.s. company specific discussion should be avoided.

Paul Anilprem wrote: Remember, it is more beneficial for the company to have a skilled resource working offsite rather than onsite.

This is true only for non IT MNCs not for Inidian IT companies. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-03-08/news-by-industry/28668595_1_h-1b-visas-visa-fee-visa-norms

If you manage your skilled resources this way I wonder how many skilled resources you will be able to retain. If you are managing B grade projects where you do not need highly skilled resources then you can let them go. But you are managing A grade project where you need skilled people then you will have to make tough choice. As far as the service companies you mentioned, they send lot of people onsite. Even small service companies send people onsite. Going onsite is motivation for people to work in Indian IT. If you take that out, it will be tough to retain. And sending onsite does not only benefit employee, it also help companies this is why they send onsite. If some company has this culture, I would say do not work there.

In India, salaries in other fields are increasing fast while salaries in IT are decreasing. I am not talking exceptions like if you have this skill you can get that salary. I am talking general. Other fields are attracting me a lot. I heard salary in Pharma, some HR heads, earning more than IT with less hard work. It may be grass always looks green at other side.

Agreed it is employers' market, don't know about Sydney but certainly my area in India.

Harsha Smith wrote:1.6 times the experience is too low...I don't think thats the average salary for a java developer in India

Certainly very low.

Interview is not an exam where a person read some books, model questions and answers, pass the exam and it's done. Companies, interviewers and candidates should understand that it's a evaluation process. For a person prospective the focus should be is it a right company where I can achieve what I want to. From the company prospective, it should be can a person do for which we are going to pay him/her. It is not an exam where you read books, answer questions and it's done. You can brush up, but it's more of a practical knowledge and skills which are not in books.

John Jai wrote:i think if you are 4+ then you can ask minimum of 7.5 LPA to an Indian MNC if you live in Chennai.

Here is CTC for freshers this year [Company] snatches NIT Warangal student for Rs 45L salary. Big difference! or may be value of Computer Science graduation with NIT. I always believe you should be paid for your brain, not for experience on paper.

They have wild mind. They can think of anything. If you get frustrated with them and tell them you are no more interested, they will think you have some probelem. For example they can suspect like, you do not know all the technlogies you mentioned on resume, you have back pain problem, you want to do this, you want to do that, you have memory loss problem, anything you can or can not think of, but recuriter's mind can think of. When you see these stupid people suspect this, you get more frustrated with them. I can write book on recruiters, I have studied them. They have very complex mind and I suspect they feel proud of their complex mind! I like technologies and I have learned many many technologies very deep. But it is not possible for anyone to remember everything I learn, they think he has loss of memory problem. If my back pained some time back because of over sitting, they will think he has permanent physical problem. For last one and half year, I did not attend any interview because I had lost interest. Now my recruiters think he has memory loss problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they suspect something else which I can not think of. There is no limit of what they can think of. The best way to deal with them is do not let them know what tricks they are playing with you, allow them to do whatever they want to do, but you need high tolerance level for that. Sometimes it is better not to respond to them, just ignore them. Let them think whatever they want. They also think learning technologies/architectures is easy because they know only names of technologies, they do not know what is inside. They do not know depth. I know many people who do bug fixing in struts project, but they do not know anything about struts. But recruiters do not understand difference between a person who genuinely know how struts work or a person who use some methods to fix bugs but does not know struts. For recuriters both are same.

The job market is very bad in my area. Better to wait till it's get better.